Home vegan diet 30 Bananas a day Durianrider, an analysis of his ‘paleo’ vegan diet

30 Bananas a day Durianrider, an analysis of his ‘paleo’ vegan diet


Harley Johnstone AKA Durianrider. A nutritional analysis of his low fat raw vegan diet

Harley Johnstone AKA Durianrider









Harley kindly sent me a photo taken March 2011

Harley Johnstone, who calls himself Durianrider, eats a low fat, raw vegan diet, primarily comprised of ripe fruit. He has as a blog 30 Bananas a day and an avid bunch of followers. He has an attractive girlfriend, a “fruititionist” known as Freelee. Durianrider likes attacking meat-eaters and recently posted this video pointing out all the shortfalls (as he sees them) of Paleo people, such as Loren Cordain, Mark Sisson, Sean Croxton, and their diets: Low carb/primal/paleo/WAPF diet gurus: why they get fat eventually!

Of course, who in the paleo world could resist a retort? If you’ve watched the video, follow it up by reading Richard Nikoley’s “Vegan Lies and their Stick Figure People” and from Sean Croxton, Underground Wellness“When Vegans Attack!”

My post is not an another attack on the his video filled with flawed logic, and cherry picked photos, I’ll leave that to others. What piqued my attention as a nutritionist was how he stays seemingly healthy on such a restricted diet. A few facts:

  • Harley is 33 years old and was born on my birthday (I can’t believe we share the same birthday!)
  • Harley is an elite endurance cyclist, who says he can ride for mega distances purely on fruit and water. He eats from 3000 -7-8-9000 calories a day, and trains from 30 mins to 23.5 hours a day for example when training for a 24hr solo mountain bike race. He eats mostly fruit and some raw vegetables, a little nuts and seeds. He is famous for promoting the consumption of 30 + bananas a day.
  • He is lean (well certainly skinny) he is 6′ (183cm) tall and weighs just 65kg (143lbs), giving him a BMI of just 19. What this does give him as a cyclist is a very low weight to height ratio, an advantage if you are a long distance cyclist or marathon runner.
  • He subscribes to the nutrition theories of Dr Doug Graham and eats a ratio by calories of 80:10:10, carbs:fat:protein. Dr Graham’s also advocates sunshine for Vitamin D, lots of exercise, sleep and a 100% raw food vegan diet comprised of organic fruit and vegetables, raw nuts and seeds.

So why does Harley eat a raw vegan mainly fruit diet? Here is what he says in a profile on Food’n’Sport blog:

Harley Johnstone spent his first 24 years battling up-and-down energy levels and a host of maladies including chronic fatigue, asthma, Crohn’s disease, hypoglycemia, mild arthritis, sleep disorders, depression, drug addiction, alcohol abuse, anorexia, acne, and more.

A raw vegan diet made him well.

Do these symptoms ring a bell? How about gluten sensitivity? Auto-immune disease? I see people with the same host of symptoms responding to a grain / legume and dairy free diet. It is not surprising a raw vegan diet cleared these problems up – it is essentially a raw paleo diet minus the animal products. i.e. you cannot eat grains or legumes, as they can’t be eaten raw and of course it is dairy free.

(One can only imagine where he might be now if he had trialed a paleo diet which most likely have cured his ills.)

Harley says he is healthy, he has blood results that most people would envy: Shown in this video of blood tests January 2010. how are my blood tests after 8 years vegan and 4 years 100% raw vegan? and this post: Raw vegan blood tests and durian eating competition (May 21, 2010) For example his B12 is 1430 (but he admits to regular B12 injections, due he says to lack of intrinsic factor) Iron 149 g/l and ferritin 200 are in ideal ranges. His cholesterol is good and his Triglycerides just 0.6mmol/l, and his blood sugar 3.4 mmol/l. His sodium is just under ideal at 134mmol/l. His vitamin E and A were is ideal ranges. His Urate was normal. His only abnormal test was Urea which was low at 1.5mmol/l . (Ideal range 2.7 – 8.0) The liver produces urea as a waste product from the digestion of protein. From Lab tests “Very low-protein diets can cause abnormally low urea”.

I’m looking for answers to a few questions:

  • What does this guy actually eat in a day and how much?
  • He scoffs at supplements, of any type. Why does he need B12 injections?
  • What if I put a day’s worth of food into a nutritional analysis, what would I find out?
  • Eating this type of radical diet, for several years, and seemingly staying healthy, and able to do a vast amount of exercise. I wondered – does Harley’s diet show any nutrient deficiencies? I assumed many, especially Vitamin B12 which is usually non-existent in vegan diets. (He has B 12 injections after all) What about fatty acids? Omega 3? Essential amino acids from protein?

Fortunately it is fairly easy to find out about what Harley says he consumes. I found this video on You Tube.In this Video he describes a typical days eating:

how much fruit does a fit and healthy raw vegan eat in a day?

He describes his intake on this particular day:

1 watermelon 20lb
1/2 head of celery
3000 calories of bananas – a box full
sultanas approx 1/2 cup
citrus – oranges, 15 lbs

He states that it is important to eat a lot of calories or you won’t get the protein you need, in fact on 30 Bananas a day “have you eaten 3000 calories today?” is prominently displayed.

I put his daily eating into “FoodWorks” and Australian / New Zealand food analysis tool. So here is the result:

NRVs based on: Male, 32years, 65kg, 183cm, Very heavy Activity

Avg/Day                      EAR                   EAR(%)            Alerts

Food Weight (g)                          18428
Energy (kJ)                                  28663    (6872 Kcal)
Protein (g)                                    94,                44   (EAR)                212% (%EAR)
Total fat (g)                                  38
– Saturated fat (g)                        7
Polyunsaturated fat (g)            6 (1.3 omega 3, 4.7g omega 6, cron-o-meter)
– Monounsaturated fat (g)          3
Cholesterol (mg)                          0
Carbohydrate (g)                        1558
Sugars (g)                                     1497
– Glucose (g)                                 453
– Fructose (g)                               376
– Sucrose (g)                                 668
– Lactose (g)                                  0
– Maltose (g)                                  0
Starch (g)                                       61
Water (g)                                       16561
Alcohol (g)                                       0
Fibre-Englest (g)                          92
Thiamin (mg)                                3.54                1.00 (EAR)            354%(%EAR)
Riboflavin (mg)                             4.98                 1.10 (EAR)            452% (%EAR)
Niacin (mg)                                    52.71
Niacin equivalents (mg)               72.47                   12.00 (EAR)         604% (%EAR)
Vitamin C (mg)                             1491.03                30.00(EAR)          4970%(%EAR)
Vitamin D (ug)                              0.00 <AI (not an issue if you get enough sun)
Vitamin E (mg)                            19.64
Vitamin B12 (ug)                         0.00                       2.00 (EAR)        0% (%EAR)<EAR, <RDI
Total folate (ug)                           658.09                   320.00 (EAR)      206%
Total vitamin A equivalents (ug) 957.78,                625.00 (EAR)     153% (%EAR)<SDT
Retinol (ug) 0.00
Beta carotene equivalents (ug) 5927.97
Sodium (mg)                              728.81
Potassium (mg)                         27262.33
Magnesium (mg)                       2561.81,                   350.00 (EAR)             732% (%EAR)
Calcium (mg)                             1225.23,                    840.00 (EAR)             146% (%EAR)
Phosphorus (mg)                      2083.22,                    580.00 (EAR)              359% (%EAR)
Iron (mg)                                   42.97,                         6.00 (EAR)                  716% (%EAR)
Zinc (mg)                                   26.49,                        12.00 (EAR)                   221% (%EAR)
Manganese (ug)                        10133.16
Copper (mg)                              7.20
Selenium (ug)                            61.34,                          60.00 (EAR)                102% (%EAR)
Kj from protein (%)                  6
Kj from fat (%)                         5
Kj from carbohydrate (%)      87
Kj from alcohol (%)                  0
Kj from others (%)                   2
Fat as mono (%)                       20
Fat as poly (%)                         39
Fat as saturated (%)               41

Essential Amino Acids analysis (using Cron-O-Meter). WHO recommended daily amounts for essential amino acids in adult humans in brackets, for 70kg man.

ALA 3.0g
ARG 6.4g
ASP 9.4g
CYS 0.6g
GLU 13.0g
GLY 2.4g
HIS (Ess) 3.7g
HYP 0g
ILE (Ess) 2.4g (1.4g)
LEU (Ess) 4.2g (2.7g)
LYS (Ess) 5.5g (2.1g)
MET (Ess) 0.8g (1.05g)
PHE (Ess) 3.5g (1.75g)
PRO 4.9g
SER 3.0g
THR (Ess) 2.7g (1.05g)
TRP (Ess) 0.9g (0.28g)
TYR 1.1g
VAL (Ess) 3.2g (1.82)

For the complete nutritional analysis see this PDF – it will show you in which foods the nutrients are found: Dietary Analysis Harley Johnstone aka Durianrider

It was a surprise to me that all essential micro-nutrients including iron, apart from pre-formed Vitamin A (retinol) and Vitamin B12 (both zero!) are present in his diet in good amounts. As his blood vitamin A is fine, I assume his body absorbs and transforms the beta-carotene to Vitamin A from his diet adequately. More on this subject from Don Matesz.

What about the Vitamin B12? In 2007 he was featured in an article in ‘Health and Wellbeing’ titled “Meat Versus a Vegetarian Diet” where he and a couple of meat eating athletes had blood tests to show up any health problems: Harley’s blood tests were normal apart from his B12 which was just 78pmol/l, the lowest the nutritionist had ever seen. Normal range is from 145 to 637. Not at all surprising as B12 is non-existent in his diet. Since then Harley has had regular B12, but justifies it – not as a dietary deficiency but a result of his previous health problems and athletic requirements.

He writes: “one of my doctor mates said that with my history of celiacs, drug abuse, chrons, hypothyroid and extreme cycling pursuits that intramuscular b12 shots would be a great idea. i did some more personal study on the matter like talking to tour de france sports doctors from various teams, googling and reading that book ‘could it be b12?’ and i decided to get a few jabs like lance armstrong and all the olympic athletes i know do. dont notice any objective difference in my feelings though. i felt amazing before, during and after a course of b12 intramuscular injections last november. imho b12 is the only supp i can see worth supplementing for people with a history of gastric, anorexic, surgical, thryroid, celiac, drug abuse issues etc.”

A convenient explanation, and quite possible. Auto-immune disease like those that attack the parietal cells in the stomach is plausible given he has Chron’s, another auto-immune gut disease. But lets face it – Harley, your nutritional analysis shows you have ZERO B12 in your diet – that’s quite possibly why you need the B12 shots. Harley’s point of view comes from Dr Graham who disputes that vegans can’t get B12 in their diets – he says the only reason vegans don’t get enough B12 it is because they lack intrinsic factor, and they can in fact get bacteria derived B12 from unwashed organic vegetables:

“We get redundant exposure to vitamin B12, which is produced by bacteria, on the surfaces of almost all of the garden-fresh organic fruits and vegetables we consume. However, a great many us (including a proportionally equal number of meat eaters) experience deficiencies as a result of a reduced ability to absorb this valuable nutrient. Intrinsic factor, produced by the parietal cells of the stomach, is necessary for the absorption of B12 in the intestines. If you are not producing a sufficient quantity of intrinsic factor, you will eventually become deficient in B12, which is a common cause of B12 deficiency. There are many reasons for producing or absorbing insufficient intrinsic factor. A few of the most common are death of the cells that produce intrinsic factor (sometimes caused by specific antibodies), stomach cancer, ulcers, specific diseases of the small intestine, fish tapeworm, stomach surgery, and bowel surgery.”

What about the calories and macro-nutrients, carbohydrate, protein and fat?

First as I’ve highlighted, Harley’s diet contains a massive number of calories, however due to his heavy exercise load, and relying totally on carbs for fuel he burns through a lot. It is probably just as well he burns so much fuel because he relies on large amounts of calories to provide some of his essential nutrients. If he did little exercise he would be eating far less and he would simply not be able get some essential nutrients. Indeed doing a lot of exercise and eating a lot of calories is necessary to the success of this diet as Dr Graham explains:

Let’s compare a hypothetical set of identical twins who eat identical foods. One is completely sedentary, a lover of music and the arts. The other is quite athletic, enjoying triathlon and weight training. The first meets her calorie requirements, and holds her weight, eating 1,800 calories per day. The latter, being more active, does the same by consuming 3,600 calories per day. Obviously, if they are eating the same foods, the athletic twin consumes double the calories, and twice the nutrients, of her sister.

The greater quantity of food makes it far easier for her to get enough of key nutrients, which can be difficult to consume in sufficient quantities. When it comes to excellent nutrition, being physically active is an essential ingredient. Not only do we eat more food when we are active, compared to when we are sedentary, but physical activity also enhances our digestion, and our ability to uptake and utilize the nutrients we consume. And the nutritional benefits of being fit do not end there. Muscles use more fuel than most other tissues, even when they are at rest. This means that a well-muscled person will require more fuel than an equally active but under-muscled person, hence taking in more nutrients of all types.

How come Harley needs to eat almost double the calories required for his needs? This seems an incredible waste of food resources. He also has a very high fibre intake. Looks like he might spend half the day on the toilet. Don Matesz has an excellent article explaining this:

Briefly, both of the apes closest to humans by genetic constitution (about 98% identical), chimps and gorillas, are hindgut fermenters.  In chimps and gorillas, the hindgut, or colon, comprises about 52 percent of the total gut volume.  It houses microbes that ferment fiber, converting it to fatty acids that supply up to 65% of the animal’s energy requirements.  In contrast, in humans the hindgut comprises only about 17 percent of total gut volume, and has relatively small microbial population.  At most, microbial fermentation in the hindgut can provide about 10% of human energy requirements.

…it appears that caloric absorption from a completely raw food vegan diet may be as low as 46%.  Given the data I showed above, this means that I would have to eat more than 20 pounds of raw vegetation daily to absorb enough calories to maintain my current body mass and activity levels.

Eating would be a full time job.  Given a 16 hour waking period, I would have to eat 1.25 pounds of food every waking hour to meet my energy needs.   I’d probably spend a good chunk of the time I wasn’t eating sitting on the toilet excreting all the undigested carbage.  My life would consist largely of eating and crapping, just like other primates.

I wonder how much time Harley does spend on the toilet?

Protein. Harley’s diet contains just enough essential amino acids. However his low blood Urea indicates he is probably not getting enough for the amount of exercise he does. An athlete needs more protein than sedentary, 1.5 grams per kilo body weight, at 65 kilos 98 grams day is required. Harley eats the bare minimum. (A day where he eats nuts and seeds would show a higher protein intake)

Carbohydrates. Harley clearly eats a lot of carbs, but mainly in the form of sugars including a massive amount of fructose. Fructose consumption is linked with metabolic problems as it is metabolised by the liver. Here is the presentation by Robert H. Lustig, MD, UCSF Professor of Pediatrics in the Division of Endocrinology, “Sugar the Bitter Truth” The only reason he is probably saved from metabolic issues is the enormous amount of exercise he does. Update – HT Jamie: This study Fructose, exercise, and health points to exercise as being the key protector :

“Although additional research is required to clarify the possible health-related implications of long-term intake of large amounts of dietary fructose among athletes, regular exercise training and consequent high daily energy expenditure may protect athletes from the negative metabolic responses associated with chronically high dietary fructose intake.”

Essential fatty acids. Harley has a low intake of fats (again it would be higher had he eaten seeds and nuts this day) His omega 3 intake is just sufficient, however he only consumes short chain omega 3 which is poorly converted to long chain EPA and DHA essential for brain and nerve cell function. A test not done – omega 3 in red cell membranes, would probably show a deficiency.

What might you be missing on a raw vegan diet?

Besides long chain Omega 3 fatty acids, pre-formed Vitamin A and Vitamin B12 what other nutrients important for health might a vegan be missing out on?

Important nutrients only found in animal products

Creatine, necessary amongst other things for cognitive function: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21118604

Carnosine: This from That Paleo Guy. The Latest Uh-Oh for Vegetarians and Vegans: Carnosine

Choline: A key component on cell membranes. It also protects against fatty liver disease.

Time will tell. Currently Harley says he thrives on a low fat, raw vegan diet. Is he suffering problems for example reduced libido that cause other vegans to add in animal products. What happens as he gets older? Will the borderline protein consumption and lack of omega 3 catch up with him? What about if he no longer exercises as much and needs to reduce his calories – will he suffer deficiencies? And the huge glucose and fructose consumption, how will that affect him long term? Diabetes? Heart disease? Fatty liver?

Or perhaps he too will find he cannot sustain a low fat, raw vegan diet like Erim Bligin :Interview With an Ex-Vegan: Erim Bilgin

And there are others who have had serious health issues, read my next article: Health problems of raw vegan diets

And for those who are interested in a longitudinal look at one man’s (Tom Billings) experience through a range of raw vegan / vegetarian diets – this article is well worth the read: 30 years of transitions:  from fruitarian to living foods to lacto-vegetarian

Also: 1 year out – quitting veganism, Benjamin Palmer


  1. I think you’ve hit on the key point: you need to be eating and burning 6000+ calories a day to get sufficient nutrients out of that stuff. Most people flame out for reasons very adequately explained by Denise Minger and others.

    First, dude could cut his calorie intake by over a third if he ate meat which was 100% digested and utilized by his body, instead of all that indigestible fiber. You’re right: raw vegan isn’t very far from Paleo. Just add meat.

    Second, what is the environmental impact of eating box after box of bananas shipped halfway around the world, versus meat from perhaps a couple hundred miles away? Unless you live in an equatorial rainforest, a raw diet is going to involve fruits and vegetables (which are mostly water) shipped halfway around the world to feed you. Even people in Florida don’t get to eat fresh oranges all year.


      • Interesting! I didn’t know bananas were grown in AU. So he’s lower-impact than anyone trying to follow a raw vegan diet in North America or Europe.

        Of course, there is also the political impact of bananas…it is instructive to recall the derivation of the term “banana republic”, in which multiple Central American governments were overthrown by the US military to protect the interests of the United Fruit Company:

        Cue Gen. Smedley Butler’s “War Is A Racket”:
        (full text available online, check links at bottom)

        No food is free of environmental or political impact, despite what some would have you believe.

        As far as “can he sustain it”, well, probably. Just as there are genetic freaks like Lance Armstrong, Jay Cutler, or Michael Phelps who are physically suited to dominating their particular sports, he might be genetically gifted in his ability to survive on bananas. (Although it hasn’t saved his teeth…) That’s the problem with n=1…combine an extremely adaptable species like humans with substantial genetic variability and a world population of 7 billion, and you can come up with a single example for just about anything.

        Thanks for doing the math to break down his diet…it really brings home that the key to making it “work” is extreme physical overtraining (made possible by unemployment) and a willingness to sacrifice your teeth.

        I’m glad you enjoy my articles!


        • Lol are you joking? Animal agriculture has the largest environmental impact on the world. Do some research please. Meat is responsible for more than 50 percent of the green house gasses. Not to mention all the water that gets wasted in order to raise cows. And dont forget about all the rainforest that gets cut down for “grass fed beef”.
          If you were truly an environmentalist, you would go vegan now. Smh

          • Actually when you exam a full cycle rather than ignore environment the animals are living in, proper herding practices are extremely beneficial to the environment. Look up the Savory Institute for details if you feel inclined.

          • Too right. not to mention the dead zones all around the world from cow factorys, which are the main human caused source of greenhouse gases.
            The guys below diabled replys but he’s right that animals can be farmed in a way that enriches the environment but obviously is missing the wood for the trees if he thinks a natural ecosystem wouldn’t be better.


      • I’m not his dentist, I’m just going off what others have said. I could be wrong.

        Note that it takes a lot of damage before you actually lose teeth. My parents have fine-looking smiles, even when they open their mouths and say “AAAAH””…but both have a mouth full of bridgework, fillings, root canals, and who knows what. And you can’t even see modern ceramic fillings (I have a few, all accumulated while I was vegetarian/SAD), so opening your mouth doesn’t prove anything either. Visibly bad teeth just means you’re poor in a place without government-subsidized dentistry, or your parents were poor and couldn’t afford braces.

        Denise Minger accumulated 15 cavities in one year on a raw vegan diet…one reason she switched away. Erim Bilgin’s teeth went to hell, too, as he notes in his interview on LTEM. There are many complaints about this in the raw vegan community…which fits with the science, as the bacteria that cause decay live on sugars, acid leaches enamel (most fruits are acid), and ingesting more phosphorous than calcium (i.e. most fruits and grains) also causes demineralization. Denise does a great job of itemizing the issues here:

        Again, dude may actually have perfect teeth. In a world with seven billion people, I have no problem believing that some tiny fraction of them can be healthy as frugivores. But he claims right in the video “If you’ve been doing this for three years and you still have the chronic fatigue, the problems, you’re doing it wrong.”

        I’m happy for him that he’s happy and doing well. Where I part ways is where he insists that anyone with any health problems is simply “doing it wrong”. There’s a lot of evidence to the contrary, n >> 1, and he’s making a lot of nice, well-meaning people terribly sick. And this article nails the primary explanation as to why.


      • Queensland (the Australian state responsible for our banana supply) has been hit by floods and cyclones this summer, wiping out most of the banana plantations. Bananas are already priced quite highly, with the supply pressure driving up prices again this year. Eating a box of bananas a day certainly is not sustainable in Australia since it’s not like you’re going to find wild banana trees in your local scrap of bushland/rainforest. Our citrus fruits, particularly oranges, are also primarily imported from the US.

        • In Australia bananas normally cost AUD2/Kg (60 US cents a pound for our American friends) at a supermarket. They are even cheaper from a wholesale market.

        • I believe Harley is living in Thailand at the moment, he also eats other tropical fruit or gets free or cheap seconds straight from the growers.
          $15.00 kilo – that is expensive

      • Impact on the environment????????????? Are you kidding, it takes 660 gallons of water to make 1lb of beef. Not to mention forest clearing for livestock. Impact on the environment…..wow what a bold statement. Morons be like everywhere.

        • True that it takes a large amount of land to raise cattle, but consider that bananas are sold for as low as .49 a pound in the states. It is imported, so you have to assume extremely cheap labor, especially when looking at cost competition on a small to large scale farm basis. It takes far more pesticides than other tropical fruit, and it is a monoculture. Banana farming also results in heavy deforestation, just like cattle farming, and it causes soil depletion and river water contamination. It’s payoffs.

          • zavier, cheap almost slave labour is the primary labour of slaughterhouses because they require the workers to have no rights and no legal voice to file complaints.

            Your spot on about monoculture. Any industrial source isn’t environmentally friendly, agriculture especially.
            But there’s good, better and best. You gotta try.

        • Actually, more forests are cleared for mono-agriculture than anything, and it is that alone that created the cycle of creating cheap products and feeding it to animals that were not meant to eat it. Also considering most agriculture used ground water and water pump from other places, not to mention the degradation caused by adding nitrogen and digging up the roots. In fact I cant accurately describe to you how wrong you are. I would look up a book at your local books store or what have you. 1. How cows can save the planet and restoration agriculture( which uses forest, poly-agriculture and yes animals to yield amazing results in depleted lands.) Two fantastic books, I wish I had them on my book shelf, alas I am broke.

          • planting a forest would beat it imho.
            Cow manure isn’t such a great soil addition vs everything thats crapping in a forest. I guess silviculture could fit in there.
            Monoculture is madness.

        • Durian rider has always reminded me of a drug addict. When I first came across a video of him, I asked in the comments how it was possible for a diabetic to follow a diet of bananas, and the comment was promptly delete and I was blocked. Sorta a weird thing to do if you want to convert someone to your way of thinking, tho I doubt that would happen. I would never allow media inflated numbers or a poor grasp of the human GI tract to ‘convert’ me.

          • He was a drug addict. he explains that. 30BAD is a fad diet but durianriders gets hated on more than most. he’s using the fad diet to get views so that he can promote veganism and call out quacks but at the same time he’s trolling hard and its hard to tell when lol.
            Imho his channel is good fun, but i wouldn’t take thier advice atall.

    • >>”I think you’ve hit on the key point: you need to be eating and burning 6000+ calories a day to get sufficient nutrients out of that stuff.”<<

      actually, that isn't true…you're putting the cart before the horse…harley is not eating for nutrition in the above example(though, this is obviously important); he's eating for calories…it just so happens that, at that level of consumption, the nutrition comes along for the ride….

      the example of a day, that has been given, would be a heavily active day with all stomach space given over to fuel/calories/sugar…what there is less room for, in such a scenario, is greens

      it’s worth making a distinction between 811 and fruitarianism….the daily figures, given, might go some ways to explaining why a strict fruitarian might run into issues unless consuming so many calories, but 811 (80/10/10, doug graham-style) is not fruitarianism….

      doug graham recommends, as a MINIMUM, 2-5% of calories in tender, leafy greens….a very generous estimate would put .5 of a head of celery at 50 calories..this equates to less than 1% of the recommended, DAILY, intake of greens….greens, however, are very bulky foods, with a low calorie payload…it is understandable that, on such an active day, this stomach space would be traded against something more energy efficient

      you suggest knocking a 1/3rd of calories off, and replace with meat….well, you can just as easily knock a 1/3rd of calories off, up the level of greens and, on occasion, add in some more concentrated fatty plant foods…..if you aren’t being overly athletic, most nutritional targets start to get ticked off between 3-4000 calories…..if your reason for eating is only to tick off nutrients, then take out a 2nd mortgage and pop along to david wolfe’s place, where it’s possible to get all your nutrition in a matter of teaspoonfulls…if you want fuel, though, you’ll need to make other arrangements

      the point about protein may be worth exploring…his protein levels, on such a day, are quite high but maybe not high enough for the level of activity (and this might be borne out by the results in the test)….

      it seems to be common in those that push their bodies through such physical feats, do so at the expense of some negative health equity…there is much debate to be had about how ‘natural’ such levels of activity are for humans….are we really supposed to be capable of anything more than a certain degree of ‘functional’ fitness….marathons don’t fall into this category and neither does bodybuilding….functional strength can come in many packages (see doug graham workout vids), bodybuilding is for aesthetics, for vanity and so as not to be thought of as “skinny” by random female bloggers :o) that it is difficult to become a beefcake on 811 might (MIGHT) give us some indication that, as a species, we aren't meant to be mr.universe…that being said, overall protein would also be increased with a much better ratio of greens

      • I notice that Harley has shifted his diet more and more towards a fruit only diet. His choice, and some of his current diet is at odds with Dr Graham’s recommendations.

        With regards to fitness, my preference too is for functional fitness and the healthy ‘look’ that those who practice functional fitness workouts get.

        You state “…it is difficult to become a beefcake on 811 might (MIGHT) give us some indication that, as a species, we aren’t meant to be mr.universe..” You are making the assumption that 811 is the way we are supposed to be eating – but is it? Yes it seems to suit and indeed benefit many people, certainly in the short term as ‘Grok’ experienced. My question as a nutritionist is “Why?” What is it about changing to a raw food diet that from a nutritional point of view gives benefits.

        What is the healthiest way to eat for me? for humans? This is still a question that has many theories but no ‘one’ definitive answer. Many of us will continue to explore and debate. (And yes I am probably biased coming from a Paleo viewpoint. I did write about this ‘diet guru’ issue in an earlier post. http://paleozonenutrition.wordpress.com/2011/02/14/on-diet-gurus-and-fad-diets/)

      • ”some of his current diet is at odds with Dr Graham’s recommendations.”

        indeed, though probably not in the ways you think :o)

        ”With regards to fitness, my preference too is for functional fitness and the healthy ‘look’ that those who practice functional fitness workouts get.”

        harley looks healthy enough to me

        ”You state “…it is difficult to become a beefcake on 811 might (MIGHT) give us some indication that, as a species, we aren’t meant to be mr.universe..” You are making the assumption that 811 is the way we are supposed to be eating”

        it’s just that many people experience fantastic health, in all areas, they just can’t get the body they think they ‘should’ have…gains can be made, for sure, cuz it’s in the training but once you drop protein powders and meat, things become a little more difficult

        i do believe that frugivorism is how we are supposed to be eating and think that 811 presents quite a good model for living healthfully within those parameters

        i 100% believe in the concept of a human species-specific diet…..so, i believe that all humans are ‘designed’ to eat the same thing, in exactly the same way as ALL species have specific diets (and, let’s leave species opportunism and starvation scenarios out of this) what, i believe, causes the issues is how far we’ve strayed from our natural diet, and habitat, and how far each individual has strayed

        THIS is what puts us at different places, in states of health that might cause complications when adopting certain ways of eating…we are the combination of our ‘ill’ genes, and all of our bad ‘health’ choices…we are at the mercy of, in some cases, some very ‘non-human’ climates….the idea that frugivorism isn’t the diet for people who live so far from the equator is not the fault of the diet, but of the location of the people

        health is not just about food
        i believe there is a definitive answer…even if i didn’t believe that the answer was frugivorism, i would still believe that what humans were supposed to eat would have a definitive answer

    • How is meat 100% digested when we don’t produce the enzyme uricase as produced by carnivores?
      A low fiber diet is a leading cause of bowel cancer.

      There’s a low environmental impact eating bananas because Australia doesn’t import bananas. They are locally grown.

    • Hey JS, did you know that the human body produces creatine, choline (also found in fruits) and carnosine. Produces b12 too but I lack intrinsic factor so need too supp.

      The average primal person supps around 131 different nutrients per day if they are on Mark Sisson’s primal blueprint MLM fad diet. I will put up a vid today about it.

      I take one supp every few months. Cost me 10c here in Thailand and takes me 30 seconds.

      How much do I spend on the toilet? Its about 5 mins a day cos with all that soluble fiber, you dont get constipated like a meat eater. I often crap my body length a day.

      • I don’t think you can say that the average primal person is taking Sisson’s expensive vitamin packs. I sure don’t. I’m sure I’m a pretty average primal eater.

        Took in somewhere around 2000 cals today, nearly 50g fiber and don’t feel I need to supplement anything when my diet exceeds RDA’s so much:

        Amounts Per Selected Serving%DV
        Vitamin A~78252IU~1565%
        Vitamin C~281mg~469%
        Vitamin D~4063IU~1016%
        Vitamin E (Alpha Tocopherol)~27.3mg~137%
        Vitamin K~2081mcg~2601%
        Vitamin B6~4.3mg~213%
        Vitamin B12~10.1mcg~169%
        Pantothenic Acid~12.8mg~128%

        Amounts Per Selected Serving%DV

        I even ate a banana today, just for you. 🙂

    • Am I reading this correctly- the negative environmental effects of eating lots of fruit? 🙂 I am a meat eater or was until yesterday and it is completely obvious to me that raw vegan is the healthiest diet. Look at the average meat eater. Just look at them compared to the average raw vegan. Most meat-eaters and bloated and sick looking ie spotty and patchy skin and low energy. The raw vegans I have met are happy and energetic and lean ie healthy. All this theory and numbers is nonsense. Please explain with all your science, how Doug Graham is so fit and well if his diet is so bad. I don’t believe the body can fake radiant health for years and then all of a sudden, get ill. Meat eaters will only see the evidence that supports meat eating because it is an addiction like any other drug and it needs to be justified. Vegans don’t have to do that. Giving up meat is obviously difficult and staying on it is obviously easy so who are you going to believe? It amazes me how supporters of meat eating ignore all the disease in the world and even sometimes suggest it has nothing to do with eating meat.

      • The both diets paleo and 811 are a bit of extreme. People should learn to balance and eat meat on rare occasion, not consume it every single day.
        At least try to have 2-3 meatless days a week. You can get complete protein by combining beans/ legumes with grains and adding other plant protein sources ( nuts, seeds and etc).
        811 is loaded with fructose and for people who work 9-5 plus kids, they may not have time to cycle so many hours like durianrider does. He exercises a lot during day to burn all calories from fruits.
        I do consume fruits mainly when I exercise, and some protein when i do weightlifting. Just try to adjust meals around your personal lifestyle, instead of blindly following paleo or 811.

    • This needs to be updated. Durian rider gets a lot of his carbs from fruits but that’s not the case anymore he adds cooked starches as well. His information doesn’t just come from graham but John Mcdougall the author of the starch solution. Humans are better equipped to handle starches and carbs than protein and fats. Our closest cousins are the chimpanzees who are frugivores. Our anatomy best fits frugivores. Although humans unlike other primates have adapted to eating starches, that was our advantage not meat. If you actually focused on the ideas more than the actual person. Durian rider isn’t wrong about carb rich diets all carb based averaging 80 : 10 : 10 populations in all times in history were fit and trim. they either had low amounts of meat or none. He gets his numbers high carb 10g per kg of weight from Kenyans. Who are pretty much slim. They output worlds top endurance runners. Before westerners influenced Asian diets. The population was super lean and healthy and they were carb based rice eaters. Gladiators and roman armies were either vegan or did not prefer meat in their diet. You can look it up. Civilizations were built off grains legumes and starches. Carbs will not make you fat even if you eat a lot of it. With the exception if you eat it with meat or something with high fat. He may be an athlete who does a lot of exercises but how can someone on a vegan mostly raw diet have so much energy and endurance it’s because of his diet. He may be skinny to our standards but he isn’t malnourished or unhealthy. For him he lives his life on endurance. He surely burns a lot of calories. But look at his lover freelee she’s on the same type of diet and shes not a marathon runner she jogs 20-60 a couple times of the week and loves actively which everyone should do for health reasons. She eats tons of carbs does she get fat no. Look at the results of cultures who do have high carb diets. Harley doesn’t fully support raw vegan he supports high carbs. He may be endurance heavy in his goals but all you do is slightly change the type of starches like beans, legumes, and quinoa and you can strength train for more muscular looks and body build. How do I know I’m certainly not a dietician or nutritionist but I’ve done research and see the examples made in the world. I read the work or many different people. Theories are bull shit if it’s not translating in real life.

      • Very high carb appears to work for some – but only if it is low fat and minimal protein. This is a really interesting talk on the subject. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADO0GCFii0U
        However not everyone thrives on this type of diet. People can eat starch but everyone has different numbers of genes related to ability to digest starch. Here is a talk on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDJjqY4H3Cc
        The role of carbohydrate in health and disease remains controversial in the ancestral health community. Numerous groups of foragers, pastoralists, and agriculturalists have been found free of the so-called “diseases of civilization” while subsisting on diets rich in carbohydrate, yet clinical trials have shown that low-carbohydrate diets can help reduce disease risk in modernized populations. In this talk I will discuss evidence from my doctoral research suggesting that oxidative stress contributes to carbohydrate intolerance and will review the literature suggesting that oxidative stress is a common cause underlying carbohydrate intolerance in modernized populations. I will conclude by presenting a broad, holistic view of “oxidative stress” that moves beyond “antioxidants” and focuses instead on the density and balance of nutrients in the diet, and the optimization of the hormonal milieu within which those nutrients operate.

  2. That guy in the photo at the top looks like one of the teenagers I used to teach before their testosterone kicked in. He looks way younger than 33, but not in a good way.

    Gimme an old guy like Mark Sisson any day!!!! LOL

    • That photo is an old one… He looks fine/great in it by my standards but you will find that as the years have gone by he has built more and more muscle… I wonder why that particular image was “cherrypicked” to head this article! 🙂

      • This was the same photo used by Dr Graham in Food’n’Sport Harley’s athlete bio in 2009. I imagine it is one Harley was happy with. Sure I’ll look for a newer one and post it also. However a BMI of just 19 for a male is very thin. It indicates little muscle mass.

        • Julianne,

          A large amount of muscle mass is not desired or required for endurance athletes. Check photos of Olympic marathoners.

          Not saying right or wrong, just saying he looks like a cyclist to me..(which he is)

          • That is true. My own experience was that my recovery after exercise was very poor on a mainly vegan diet. I feel and recover so much better with animal protein.

          • It is actually desirable for cyclists. Upper body muscle may not be as desirable but lower body muscle, leg strength, certainly. His legs do not look that powerful from all the different images I’ve seen.

      • When you look at all the videos he posts, there is no two ways about it – he is stick thin tiny. For a male of his height to be mid-60’s in weight is not a normal weight to be. Look at video’s of him in his cycling gear – there is little difference between his arms and legs. This might be OK for someone who is racing in the pro peloton, but it is not healthy.

      • Julianne, yes, no problem, your article is a fair one coming from your perspective, I was just playing around about the “cherrypicking” thing because you mentioned it about the way he supposedly chose the photos he used for his video ( easy to say, might even look that way, but not always so easy to know for sure… ) and i was just pointing out that it is an old photo and there are heaps more muscly ones around, I am sure he will be happy to oblige and get one to you if you can’t find one easily online 🙂
        Jamie, absolutely no way I would agree that he is “stick thin tiny” and I would venture to say that I have probably seen a lot more photos and videos of him than you have… also see Adam’s post below…

      • The majority of elite endurance athletes have a BMI between 18 and 21. Anyone expecting someone that can run/ride as far/fast as me to look like a muscle head needs to learn more about human physiology. 😉

        • Yes, this is what I was about to say…any serious endurance athlete, vegan or not, will need a low bmi if they want to competitive.

        • Usain Bolt has a BMI of 24.7 (almost overweight). Can you run faster than him, Harley? Francois Pervis is actually overweight. Can you cycle faster than him? If you eat 30 pounds of food a day whereas most endurance athletes eat more like 10-15, is it really accurate to say that you are within the correct BMI range you’ve outlined? I imagine most endurance athletes don’t include 25 pounds of undigested fiber in their weight figures. Did you choose fruitarianism because you are a cyclist or did you choose cycling because you are a fruitarian, or is it just a coincidence that you happen to hobby in one of about three sports that you have a faint chance of being competitive in with this diet? If you are indeed competitive, how come no one cares about your cycling achievements outside of fruitarians? Harley, did you know that elite endurance athletes also do not follow a fruitarian diet because it is not the most competitive diet for your sport? Please respond, I have so many questions that I obviously do not have the answers to.

    • I agree, Julianne did a great break down. I guess if it was true about fructose giving one diabetes and obesity, after 10 years, youd think Id have at least some symptoms by now? I mean who on earth eats as much fructose as us 811 crew? How come 100% of us are lean, fit and strong longterm? How come NONE of us have blood sugar issues? Even Robby Barbaro is a type 1 diabetic BEFORE going 811 and is now loving life. He has the best health of his diabetic life. Google him up.

      How come the low carb crew, 99% of em have a fat gut and the remaining 1% drink a shit load of coffee and use only a few old photos that they recycle over and over. Sounds like calorie restriction to me. Personally, I like to eat a LOT and not one for moderation in life. 😉

      • You’re confusing necessary with sufficient conditions. You would only be eating too much fructose IF you were fat.

        100% of you? What a joke. You’re seriously deluded. Here is a counter example to prove definitively that the 100% figure is a baldfaced lie:


        Not to mention the cult-like practices of 30BAD described in that interview… Of course everything is rosy. You sensor and pressure people to make everything appear rosy.

        Paleo is not calorie restricted, and I’ve seen an order of magnitude greater physiques from paleo dieters vs. your raw vegan crowd. Not only that but much more impressive feats of strength and body composition in old age.

        The only way a vegan can have good body composition is by supplementing. Personally, I prefer that my proteins and fats weren’t grown in a lab, but on a delicious animal. If vegans don’t supplement they get scrawny and sick. Find a single vegan body builder who has been a vegan for at least a few years, that doesn’t eat concentrated protein products. They do not exist. How natural is that?

        Maybe you can think about it while you’re shooting yourself up with B12…..

        • Hate to tell you dude, but your “delicious animals” were grown in a lab, and if you think modern meat production is anything else, I suggest you check out your local slaughter house/meat packing plant. Second, show me one paleo body builder who doesn’t take supplements. Sisson certainly peddles a lot on his website, as do others. Most bodybuilders take supplements, that’s just the way it is. Not only that, I’m sick of the ” nature fallacy” that so many paleo proponents cite. How natural us your car, house, or modern medicine…something being natural does not intrinsically mean better.

          • Paleo is not about being ‘natural’ or eating like a caveman, it has nothing to do with using modern conveniences. It is eating a diet as close as we can to one that suits us genentically. Just like you dont feed a cat a grain based diet or a rabbit meat. Humans for 99% of our time on earth at an omnivorous diet, a diet full of modern foods is making us sick as a race. Sitting on our butts all day, and not getting enough sleep is making us sick. Meat is not making us sick – at least not the healthy hormone free meat from animals eating their native diet.

            Most otherwise healthy vegans get sick with deficiencies, and can only eat a vegan diet with the convenience of modern lab made supplements for example B12. No otherwise healthy omnivore will suffer deficiences eating an omnivorous paleo diet.

          • Wow, Harley, you certainly are notorious for posing as multiple users and trolling to support your own personal agenda. Why not accept the fact that people can thrive on different types of diets?

      • This low-carb crewmember has a fat gut because I haven’t gotten down to my goal weight yet. I also need to change my sleep habits and I need to watch my fatty acid intake because I still get way too much industrial oil in my diet. There is so much more to changing your weight than just changing your carb composition or eating more plants or whatever.

        But let me just weigh in (ha) on the “you can get enough nutrition on a vegan diet” thing. No. No, you can’t. I found out by accident that I was short on retinol. That’s preformed vitamin A… I had had heavy periods for three years and some months it was so heavy I couldn’t leave the house, had to break out the rag bag and dreaded running out of clothes because I was in an apartment with no washer and dryer and no car. It was hell. I also didn’t have insurance or the cash to trot off to Planned Parenthood, and I was afraid of what they’d find anyway.

        I thought it might be endometriosis, based on some of my symptoms, so I went looking for info for natural treatments because I know how hard it is for the medical establishment to fix endo. I wasn’t sure I wanted to go through all the surgical stuff and I knew I wasn’t going to go on drugs. The Pill and I have not gotten along well historically, and I wasn’t going to go there again. So I’m looking for stuff online, and somebody said something about using vitamin A. I thought, “Oh yeah, I get beta carotene in my vitamins,” and I like carrots and sweet potatoes, so I really wasn’t lacking in BC. I decided to look for a naturally-sourced retinol supplement, and I started taking it daily.


        Found out via the Weston A. Price Foundation that vitamin A is vital for reproductive health. Saw mention of something about fetal kidney development, and got worried because my daughter was born with vesicoureteral reflux, which is urine going backwards from the bladder into the kidneys. Did some more digging, discovered that vitamin A is important in the signaling process that helps the ureteral bud develop in the fetus. The ureteral bud becomes both the ureter and the nephrons of the kidney (filtering structures). That was part of her problem too–the right side refluxed worse than the left side, the ureter looked warped on the scans, and the right kidney was significantly smaller than the left.

        I knew someone who worked at a transplant clinic and she said VUR is a major risk factor for end-stage renal disease.

        Urinary tract defects are the most common class of defects in the developed world, according to the Mayo Clinic.

        Many cases of VUR go undiagnosed. I have a cousin who didn’t find out she had it til she was an adult. I have a friend whose husband was diagnosed with it when he was 11. My daughter just happened to luck out by getting a UTI at the age of four months.

        They’re telling pregnant women not to eat liver. People like you are telling everyone not to eat animal foods. There isn’t a single, solitary plant food that contains pre-formed vitamin A.

        Come to find out that as much as 40 to 50 percent of the population is incapable of converting beta carotene to a significant enough degree that they can depend on plant foods for their vitamin A. I am not clear on whether that is 40 to 50 percent of healthy people, or if the researchers failed to control for known conditions such as diabetes and hypothyroidism that make it impossible to convert BC. I do know that people with conditions like that tend to gravitate to the vegan diet in a quest for better health.

        Are you willing to take on the karma involved in telling people to eat a diet that will destroy their fertility and deform their children?

        Are you aware that renal failure is one of the qualifying medical conditions for Medicare, regardless of one’s age, because so many Americans wind up with renal failure that it was becoming a public health crisis?

        Go ahead and destroy your health if you want to. But the only reason I don’t think people like you should be charged with malicious assault is because a law that would convict someone for exhorting others to adopt a vegan diet might be twisted around to use for convicting someone who encourages others to eat animal foods. So my only hope is that you are convicted in the court of public opinion. Because what you’re doing is causing measurable harm. Even when someone does not go full-out vegan, the notion that plant foods are vital to human health and animal foods only a hedonistic luxury is pushed hard by the vegan contingent–you help perpetuate the conditions that lead to malnutrition and physical damage at all ages.

        It’s your conscience, dude. Have fun bike-riding. My daughter sure had fun being cut open for her ureter re-insertion.

        • Dana, thanks for your comment, I too am concerned about the attitude of many vegan advocates that seem unaware and unconcerned about serious health issues of the diet they promoting. It is criminal to promote a vegan diet and not to make followers aware of the potential deficiencies and the health consequences.

      • I was an 811er for 2 years and it make me EXTREMELY sick, fat, and miserable. It’s the most unhealthy I’ve ever been in my whole life, and it really messed up my gut . I did everything I was supposed to do, but my body just wasn’t having it. I’ve been working on repairing my gut from this awful diet for about 2 years now, and I’m still not perfect, but the paleo diet has helped dramatically. 811 is safe for maybe some people, but not everyone! Just like paleo is not good for everyone- no one diet is good for EVERYONE. that is the most important lesson to take from this.

      • Yes, your deceitful “statistics” demonstrate sufficiently that you are not one for moderation. I can just go onto your Youtube channel and see that the majority of your supporters are overweight or obese women. You will also find that contest-prepped body builders are in the low-carb crew. They have about 4 times as much muscle as you will ever have in your entire life while having comparable amounts of body fat. And no, they will not belt you up the corkscrew, but they can probably do as much physical work in about 30 seconds as you can in 10 minutes without even competing on those grounds.

      • How come you ended up taking testosterone, or steroids after being on this diet for so long? Especially interesting as so many of your earlier vids were spent blasting any body builder you assumed was on ‘the juice’.

        Of course you also did end up becoming less fruitarian, more starchivore w/ the advent of RT4, which was probably higher in protein. But still, ‘roids’ as you also liked to call them?

  3. Started out good. Ended with the same old tired arguments. The paleo movement rhetoric is getting about as boring as the mainstream and their “healthy whole grains”.

    • I’ve read your account of switching to an 811 diet – really interesting!
      My viewpoint is not entirely that of a paleo person (although I admit that is my bent) I was trying to look more objectively as a nutritionist.
      If you have any input along those lines – I would be interested in hearing it.

      • Totally understand. I was “bent” before I dove in head first. I probably looked at the diet for two years before I tried it. I didn’t see how it could be possible to implement. Who the hell just eats fruit? Where do you get your protein? My bones with crumble without my dairy!

        I feel B12 deficiency is more of a problem of society than it is any particular diet.

        I wouldn’t argue that we were ever vegans, but in a hypothetical vegan world, we’d still be eating dirty produce with dirty hand, fingernails and undamaged guts. Rich dirt and fecal matter (maybe contact our own) in our dirty little world would probably take care of our B12 needs.

        Now we live in world with chronic bacterial fear, hand washing, chemically sprayed crops, pollution, ultra-high stress, and most of us damaged bodies from years of eating crap, drugs etc… B12 should probably be considered on any diet.

        Another problem I have is the nutrient nitpicking. A good chunk of these vegan diets have WAY more variety in them than paleo diets. The whole “30 Bananas” thing really shouldn’t be taken literally. Basically it means “3k calories from fruit”.

        Fat: Any paleo diet is going to have plenty of fat in it. Is there really a need to supplement fat like a good portion of people seem to be doing? Focus on the source, rather than how much.

        I’m not targeting you in particular. It was a very well written article for the audience it was being written for. There’s a lot of confusion and generalizations in the paleo world about this diet I hope to address.

        I hope to write some more soon. it’s really too bad I write so poorly & slowly. There’s a lot of things I’d like to put to rest, or at least bring attention to.

      • @grok

        maybe, now you’ve changed your diet you need to update your keyboard..typing on mammoth teeth with rocks is so yester-epoch……….


        would be great to hear more insights, when you can.

      • Dear Sue (the typical anonymous online expert with too much to say *yawn*),

        You’re very critical of Doug’s diet and his “rapid aging”, yet I don’t see any photos, videos, or information about you?

        FYI, I got booted from 30BaD six months ago. I was hardly kissing up.

        He can sensor whatever he wants it’s his site, but please explain to the readers here the parts of my approved comment over there that weren’t true?

      • I’m no expert and yeh I know you got booted off I’ve read your comments before. I just think Doug looks like he has aged quickly these last couple of years. You don’t need to see pics of me I’m not selling anything and have nothing to prove. My point was that Durian doesn’t post comments that question or don’t agree with him.

  4. Hi,
    I have been a vegan for 20 years, and I have never had any nutritional deficiencies…and My libido is through the roof. I eat a high raw diet, so yes I eat cooked food and I occasionally supplement for B12 and omegas, just for good measure. My blood work is consistently fine. One other thing of interest, many people who eat meat are also deficient in B12 and having to supplement.
    Interesting stuff!

  5. “Harley is 33 years old and was born on my birthday (I can’t believe we share the same birthday!)”.

    Me either! I seriously thought you were my moms age (4o)! I guess all that consumption of meat, ages you fast.

  6. Harley Johnstone is interesting with his claims to being a world class athlete/coach. It is really easy to name drop and bask in reflected glory – particularly for cyclists in strong cycling countries and in areas where true world class riders often hang out. South Australia is certainly one of those areas and Harley (in his videos and forum comments) likes to drop names such as Armstrong, McGee, etc. I could do the same if I chose to. In fact look at my “impressive” resume and credentials as a “world class” coach:

    – UCI registered cycling coach
    – Coach to a world ranked female track cycling sprinter
    – Have coached former and current world ranked sprint and endurance track cyclists
    – Coach to women’s World Masters Track Champ
    – Nutrition advisor to Swiss female National champ (and Olympic medalist)
    – Nutrition advisor to New Zealand endurance track rider and current Pro Peloton rider (Team Sky)
    – Strength and Conditioning coach to New Zealand Women’s Canoe Polo and Ultimate Frisbee teams
    – Involved in strength, fitness, rehabilitation, and nutrition advice to several New Zealand and World athletes from basketball, netball, cricket, and cycling.

    None of that is embellished – it is all legit. But it isn’t half as impressive as it sounds and it is very common for coaches and trainers to be able to talk themselves up in such a way.

    I spent a couple of hours reading about Mr Johnstone and all of his claims. Like he claims to be a world record holder for cycling around Australia. Yet this website listing all the record holders doesn’t mention any Harley Johnstone: http://www.lonebiker.dk/ausrekorder.htm#4

    He also makes this fairly bold claim in an interview on this site:

    “I am unbeatable in my state for 24 hour bike races. and hope to win the nationals this year.”

    Unbeatable huh? Well let’s look at the results I have been able to find from this cycling forum:


    – 2009 Australian 24hr Champs: DNF 17 12:01:31 Harley Johnstone DNF

    – 2005 Mont 24hr: DNF 2 7:48:20 harley johnstone

    – 2002 Canberra Tour, April 26-28; Dnf Harley Johnstone

    I guess one could argue that if they didn’t actually finish a race, they weren’t truly beaten.

    Then we have this claim:
    “I am the 2008 South Australian 24-hour solo Cross Country Champion.”

    I’d like to see Mr Johnstone direct people to a link that proves this and many of his results. I have been unable to verify many of his claims, which is odd given many results for state and national champs are often listed, with archives extending back to the early 2000’s in many cases.

    Then there are these sorts of weasel-word claims (again, unverified):
    “I finished first in Australia at the Paris-Brest-Paris 1243km bike race. I finished 55th out of 4000 competitors.”

    The history of this is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris%E2%80%93Brest%E2%80%93Paris

    As you can see, it isn’t a bike race like one might expect with the TdF for example. It is truly a solo endurance event where you simply ride against the clock. It is classed as an Audax race:

    “Audax is a cycling sport in which participants attempt to cycle long distances within a pre-defined time limit. Audax is a non-competitive sport: success in an event is measured by its completion.”

    There is nothing special about being able to ride very long distances, if you are keeping whatever fuel you are best adapted to going in. If Mr Johnstone is able to maintain CHO @ 10g per kg of BW going in (plus whatever else he sneaks in), combined with training to ride long distances at a steady pace, he should be fine. If his vegan diet is truly superior in terms of cycling performance, then I would want to see some results from the likes of criteriums, hard-fought tours, short sprint MTB events, etc. He should be superior across the full spectrum of events. But he isn’t. By his own admission:

    “I train specific to my events. 24hr is my specialty. I do rides over 20 hours and solo. Mostly it`s around 20 hours a week: hills, flat, sprints, long easy rides, road races etc. I do a bit of running for cross-training. I can run 5km in 18:30 – nothing special. Like I said, 24 hour cross country is my gig.”

    Let me stress, to those readers who are unfamiliar to cycle racing, the strategies used to race the likes of a 24 hour event are completely different from what you would use in any of the shorter events. Your aim is to keep riding at a steady and consistent pace. You don’t engage in sprints, attacks, breakaways, etc. You don’t require the ability to generate large amounts of power or to drive big gears. I have found some times for Mr Johnstone for various hill climbs (running & cycling), and they seem OK as best I can judge having never seen the hills themselves. But as someone who used to be a 60kg mountain-biker and multisport runner, at that weight, and with a handy VO2max (mine was 64mL/kg/min at that weight), I can tell you that very few riders could keep up with me on the hills, especially the longer climbs. But, back then, match me up against the stronger riders on the flat or short power climbs, and things changed pretty quick (I actually had a body that looked very similar to the photo above).

    Lastly, Mr Johnstone makes the claim that he can bench press his own body weight – a whole 64kg. Big deal. Many of the female athletes I have trained would out-bench him despite giving away 5-10kg of body weight. And here is the other thing with this… when guys tell you how much they can lift, they will give you the number they can do for 1-2 reps… not what they can rep out, set after set. I rarely do bench press, but, with a good warm up, I’m picking I could knock out something in the order of 1-2 reps at 100-105kg. So I could make the claim that due to my paleo diet, I can bench press 1.25 times my own body weight – but it wouldn’t be true, because it would be a one-off, one set wonder. And I can tell you, without a doubt, based on the photo above, that Mr Durianrider does not engage in a lot of pressing in the gym.

    Here is my challenge to him – If he is the athlete he claims to be, then let’s see the results with verified links as proof. Get him to get his skinny arse down to a sports lab and pump some numbers out – wattage at 5s, 30s, 60s, 5min, 20min. Then get to the gym with an independent PT – 1RM squat, ODL, bench, overhead press. Maybe a more functional strength test too – one of the Crossfit benchmarks… No more slinking around in forums. Step up and put the numbers out there.

      • Hey Jaime, Ive been tested at the AIS and Underdale Uni Campus here in South Oz.

        Hey, you forgot to mention my time for 2003 PBP. 51:30. Hey, do you know anyone faster than that? Unsupported too!

        Hey, you gotta tell the front group at PBP that its not a race and we should all ride in the 39 and double lines at slow tempo.

        Hey, your forgot to mention my placing at the 2004 24hr solo nationals. Look it up. Or did you cherry pick it. I won the SA champs in 2002 and 2008. Hey, Im 100% drug free and race/train on ZERO stimulants. Cafffiene, tea, cacao etc included.

        You want me to do another VO2max? How about I video it and get doctors to do it and you give me 10 000$ if my V02 max is UNDER 70?

        Not such a big talker now are we Jamie. 😉

        Hey, you guys say that you will die after 1 week without eating animal products and Im training with the most doped up athletes in the world. How many A grade cyclists you know that can bench press their own bodyweight? I only know 2. Your trying to tell me that a female endurance cyclists can bench 64kg? Your talking out your ass again Jamie! 😉

      • Durianrider,

        Clearly 30 Bananas per day do as much for your reading comprehension as they do the muscularity of your body.

        I said:

        “I’d like to see Mr Johnstone direct people to a link that proves this and many of his results. I have been unable to verify many of his claims, which is odd given many results for state and national champs are often listed, with archives extending back to the early 2000′s in many cases.”

        You have taken the time to reply – which is great – and this gives you ample opportunity to direct link people to your results, yet you haven’t. You have merely thrown in a spattering of more claims as to how shit hot you think you are without linking directly to the results. Am I wrong in my assumption that if you have been a past national champion, your name should be up in lights on a national champion website? Maybe it is 10 pages back on the Google search I did trying to find results listed. No doubt you have the links to them, so post ’em up. Here is your chance to get the glory. By the way, I am the 1995 Otago (NZ province) duathlon champ – therefore eating paleo makes you a great athlete.

        You said:

        “I am unbeatable in my state for 24 hour bike races. and hope to win the nationals this year.”

        Is that, like, unbeatable, forever, dude? Or just in one year (verify results please)? Because to me, when you claim to be unbeatable, it is generally over many races, over several seasons, then you can start with that sort of bragging. If someone has beaten you, then I’m guessing (and I could be wrong here), that no longer makes you unbeatable. I am unbeatable in our Saturday morning sprint session… no really I am. Therefore, Paleo FTW.

        You said:

        “Hey, you forgot to mention my time for 2003 PBP. 51:30. Hey, do you know anyone faster than that? Unsupported too!”

        Well, here are the results for PBP in 2003 (see I’m good like that – I like to provide links to back up my claims):


        Sure enough, scroll down and you will see one Johnstone, Harley with a result of 51:30. Funny thing is, a quick (but not thorough) scroll through the rest of the results reveals the following;

        – Francios Thoraval, 45:34
        – Gerard Poncin, 45:34
        – Jean-Luc Perrin, 51:00
        – Michel Minget, 47:55
        – Mikael Mikkelsen, 49:41
        – Marc Leuckk, 44:40
        – Jean-Michel Labeque, 51:23
        – Michel Herv, 47:03
        – Chris Grealish, 46:05
        – Alain Gibon, 49:34
        – Dom Briand, 45:40

        So I guess there were one or two that went a bit quicker than you.

        I said:

        “Get him to get his skinny arse down to a sports lab and pump some numbers out – wattage at 5s, 30s, 60s, 5min, 20min. Then get to the gym with an independent PT – 1RM squat, ODL, bench, overhead press. Maybe a more functional strength test too – one of the Crossfit benchmarks…”

        No mention of VO2max in that lot. I’m picking as the shit hot cyclist you think you are (don’t we all think that though really?), you will know that VO2max is worth four-fifths of not very much when it comes to gauging ability. If it was, the guy with the highest VO2max would win TdF every year. That is why I suggested power testing – be great to see what your little girl legs can put out… I’d expect you to break 1600W at 5s and be 5-6W/kg at threshold if you are as world class as you want everyone to believe. Heck, you might even have these numbers already that you could scan and throw up on the interweb for all to see.

        And lastly, just because I cannot emphasise your poor reading comprehension enough, you said;

        “Your trying to tell me that a female endurance cyclists can bench 64kg? Your talking out your ass again Jamie! ”

        Here is what I actually wrote:

        “…Mr Johnstone makes the claim that he can bench press his own body weight – a whole 64kg. Big deal. Many of the female athletes I have trained would out-bench him despite giving away 5-10kg of body weight.”

        Firstly, no mention of endurance cyclists – I said female athletes – they just happened to be NZ rep track cyclists, but hey, minor details. Secondly, and this is where my math gets a bit rough… I said they were giving away 5-10kg on your body weight, so let’s say they are 55-60kg of body weight. Here are some numbers for you from one of those female cyclists that I trained;

        – Weight = 60kg, 16% body fat
        – Squat = 145kg
        – Deadlift = 105kg
        – Bench Press = 65kg
        – All 1RM
        – Peak Power = 1240W in 2 seconds.

        I eagerly await your numbers & links without you being a complete knob (as much as a talent as it might be) about it all.

      • Well, I’m quite touched that out of all the comments that you could have addressed, including perhaps Julianne’s initial analysis of your diet, you chose to address the one that called into question your prowess on the bike… you are indeed a true egomaniacal cyclist. Nice work.

        You wrote:

        “Hey Jamie, you want me to be a competitive power athlete AND a competitive 24hr solo xc rider? Dude, you need to go back to school and study human physiology again.”

        Not at all – just expect you to be able to be strong. Being strong and being good at endurance aren’t mutually exclusive. Do a PUBMED search on strength training and endurance cycling to see.

        You wrote:

        “#Unbeatable in my state? Thats not true. I wouldnt say that. Must have been someones editing. Just like when I read on the net somewhere that I JUST eat bananas. Ive been on the 24hr podium more than anyone in SA thats for sure. But hey, who really gives a fcuk about bike racing, its just drugs, more drugs and nobody cares who came second. I do it for health and fitness and to show those that care that you can still finish a 24hr race as a vegan and often hit the podium overall.”

        So this isn’t an accurate interview with you then? http://www.fruitnut.net/HTML/305_Harley_Johnstone.htm

        “I run marathons and can bench press my body weight. I am unbeatable in my state for 24 hour bike races. and hope to win the nationals this year. i finished first in Australia at the Paris – Brest – Paris 1243km bike race. I finished 55th out of 4000 competitors. obviously most people are there for fun but the lead group i was in take drugs and ride hard.”

        Makes you wonder how many of the other interviews you have conducted then have been edited. Be good for you to set the record straight and post up the links to the South Australian MTB site that catalogues your achievements… just seems to be a lot of hot air without that proof.

        Admirable that you are a ‘clean’ athlete, but claiming that everyone else is ‘doped’ is a big call… though I guess it gives you an out doesn’t it. “Oh boo-hoo, my super vegan legs didn’t stand a chance because everyone else had a cup of coffee before the race”.

        You wrote:

        “#You really like to take things out of context dont you Jamie. I road a 51:30 and said ‘do you know anyone that has riden faster than that? Do you? Do you have any mates that have riden that distance in that speed? Are those French cocaine snorters your personal buddies?”

        Harley, you really need to make the rules of engagement here a bit clearer. I wasn’t aware that unless I actually personally knew the 54 drugged up people his handed your arse to you (some by 6-7 hours), they didn’t actually count. But then again, I (thankfully) don’t know you either, so I guess that means your result doesn’t count on that logic either.

        You wrote:

        “#Jamie, look up who won the Australian 2010 Heavy Weight bench press champs in 2010. Noah Hannibal has been a vegan for the last 17 years. VEGAN WINS THE HEAVYWEIGHT BENCH PRESS CHAMPS! lol! And we have people that cant even turn the tv without the remote saying ‘I wouldnt get enough protein as a vegan..’”

        After beating up on people who take supplements, drugs, etc, you mean this Noah Hannibal who promotes all of these vegan strength supplements? http://www.veganstrength.org/articles/vegan-strength-supplements/ But a vegan diet provides everything one needs, so why would one need to supplement??

        You wrote:

        “#I will do a youtube vid that films me in a lab doing a vo2max. What a great idea and it will get more hits and show people how fit and healthy you can be as a long term vegan.”

        Again, not interested in Vo2max. Perhaps you need the lesson in exercise physiology Harley. Try this one: http://www.training4cyclists.com/optimal-bike-training-threshold-power-vs-vo2-max/

        “Even though VO2 max is an important physiological skill, threshold power is even more crucial. The absolute power output at your threshold power is often a lot more important than the absolute number at VO2 max. That also explains why the athletes with the highest VO2 max values not per definition are the strongest performing riders in the peloton.”

        Show me a bike race, particularly a 24h xc race where you sit at VO2max for the duration and the person with the highest VO2max is always the winner. Given the nature of xc terrain, a full power profile from 5sec power through to Functional Threshold Power (FTP). School yourself up here: http://www.flammerouge.je/content/3_factsheets/constant/functhresh.htm

        • Not sure why it was necessary to slag female athletes in your little debate, (as in why the hell would you be surprised that a female can bench that much, and heaven forbid, that she can outbench a dude, ffs it happens, people)….another pathetic example of a smug, self-righteous egomaniac who feels that cutting down others will boost his own ass up. Seems like this comment section went to the gutter as soon as Harley and his multiple alias douchebaggery took over.

    • Jamie, very interesting about the 51:30 time.
      Was reading at 30 Bananas and one of the members seemed to be deleted and her post on calorie restriction disappeared. Why was I reading there – wanted to see what they were discussing.

      • All right, Jamie is gonna cop it now! 😉

        Hey Jamie, you want me to be a competitive power athlete AND a competitive 24hr solo xc rider? Dude, you need to go back to school and study human physiology again. 😉

        #Unbeatable in my state? Thats not true. I wouldnt say that. Must have been someones editing. Just like when I read on the net somewhere that I JUST eat bananas. Ive been on the 24hr podium more than anyone in SA thats for sure. But hey, who really gives a fcuk about bike racing, its just drugs, more drugs and nobody cares who came second. I do it for health and fitness and to show those that care that you can still finish a 24hr race as a vegan and often hit the podium overall.

        #You really like to take things out of context dont you Jamie. I road a 51:30 and said ‘do you know anyone that has riden faster than that? Do you? Do you have any mates that have riden that distance in that speed? Are those French cocaine snorters your personal buddies? 😉 Hey, you guys say you will die in a week or so if you dont eat flesh foods and Im living proof that is BS. I only know 1 Australian that has riden PBP faster. Thats pretty fucken impressive if you ask me. For the readers that dont know much about cycling, plot a distance that is 621km away from you and imagine riding that in 51:30 TOTAL time. You start the clock and have to be back in 51:30. Thats FUCKEN impressive! 🙂 Hey, you gotta blow your own trumpet sometimes cos people hate a tall poppy. Especially a lean, fit and strong poppy that fat ‘has beens’ are jealous of. 😉

        #Hey, Jamie, I took my shirt off as requested by a reader and posted my photo, how about you take yours off. Post your current pb’s. Here is my latest running pb. Please send me a link of any low carb cross fit cru that can run faster. Can you? RECENT gps links only please, not hearsay vague ‘around 10k in 37 I think’ 😉 http://connect.garmin.com/activity/69097919

        Here is a 230km bike ride on Sunday. Fruit, juice and water. Hey, how come no zone/paleo/primal crew are doing super endurance stuff like this? Oh thats, right, they cant cos they have such low glycogen levels. 😉

        # I mean Ive been vegan for 10 years with A GRADE consistent blood pathology and only take one sup due to a genetic issue (b12 absorption) and most paleo/primal crew sell/take up to 30 supps and Ive NEVER seen ANY blood work on youtube from any cross fit/paleo/zone/primal crew. I dont know any super fit people from that side either. I see some nice people for sure though. I see lots of crew just plain jealous that I get to carb up and have smoking hot girlfriend and really live life to the max and help the planet. This REALLY irks a lot of people. I say, dont be jealous, just live your own life!

        #Jamie, look up who won the Australian 2010 Heavy Weight bench press champs in 2010. Noah Hannibal has been a vegan for the last 17 years. VEGAN WINS THE HEAVYWEIGHT BENCH PRESS CHAMPS! lol! And we have people that cant even turn the tv without the remote saying ‘I wouldnt get enough protein as a vegan..’

        #I will do a youtube vid that films me in a lab doing a vo2max. What a great idea and it will get more hits and show people how fit and healthy you can be as a long term vegan.

        #Last question to Jamie, do you know any elite athletes that dont do stimulants or more than one supplement? I dont and I routinely train with household names in Australian cycling and running. Just cos people dope, doesnt make em bad people but lets not pretend that eating flesh food turns people into some primal/paleo super freak that Mark Sisson says it does. Dont get me started on Mark ‘hgh Sisson’. 😉

      • Paris Brest Paris is 1243km. I rode it unsupported in 51:30. Thats 622km out and 621km back. Does anyone know anyone personally that has riden a bike over that distance? And here is the thing: WITH ZERO STIMULANTS/DOPE/EPO/HGH/CAFFIENE etc.

      • Bike riding is not just about V02 max, otherwise Id win so many more races. Its about drugs, cornering, tactics, having team mates, luck, taking dangerous risks and making it all happen on the day. Let me guess, you think all pro athletes are clean and its just 1% of em are naughty. 😉

        I bet you got a bit of a gut, couldnt keep up with me for a km in a run and couldnt keep up with me for 100metres on the bike. 😉

        You guys are a dime a dozen. Haters all the way despite what evidence we provide. Guys like you waste your whole life justifying stupidity. Why waste your time debating with me, you could be chopping down more forrest to make more room for grass fed animals that you could go murder and feed your fat little belly with Jamie. End of the day, I might seem childish but your the grown man that still drinks babies milk.

        • Damn these idiots. And the half-ass-informed author was talking about vegans who are not into physical activity daily. well guess what? I have had a 99.9% plant based diet for the past 25 years (since birth) except for mother’s milk as a baby. I take 0 supplements. Never needed meds, never had any diseases.
          I’m healthy, fit, 185cms/169lbs with no deficiencies whatsoever. I trek and hike every 4-5 months in the Himalayas for a month or so.
          The problem with non vegans is they wanna see more humans die, more land wasted, more water wasted, more animals die, more plants die and still wanna defend UTTER CRAP (literally too, 90,000,000,000 land animals’ lifetimes worth of crap sent into the environment, slaughtered each year). Seriously, grow up.

          And yeah, I’m for real, unlike the hide-my-ass-and-talk-crap non-vegans around here.
          look up c-dan and stalk me if you doubt it.

          • I’d say, when you go vegan, don’t have the diet you had before, minus the carcass/mammary secretions/unfertilized hen-periods.
            Be creative and have a new, wholesome diet.
            There are thousands of vegan fruits/veggies/nuts out there.
            And what do you think where the animals that’re eaten get their nutrients from? Plants, the soil.
            If someone goes vegan and starves themselves because they have zero knowledge about plant foods, they shouldn’t be starving themselves. Coz there’s the internet.
            If you spend just some time learning something new, you can give yourself and everyone, a better life.
            An animal based diet kills more humans, many animals (150 billion a year), way way more plants, takes up more land, clears up more forests, takes up more fresh water, releases more greenhouse gases that anything else on earth.
            Give yourself the chance to grow. Keep an open mind.
            Nothing to lose, lots to gain.

  7. el-bo:

    “i 100% believe in the concept of a human species-specific diet…..so, i believe that all humans are ‘designed’ to eat the same thing, in exactly the same way as ALL species have specific diets … the idea that frugivorism isn’t the diet for people who live so far from the equator is not the fault of the diet, but of the location of the people”

    What evidence do you have that hominids have been primarily or exclusively frugivorous at any time within the last 2.6 million years? Even chimpanzees hunt and kill colobus monkeys:
    “In fact, during the peak dry season months, the estimated per capita meat intake is about 65 grams of meat per day for each adult chimpanzee [in Gombe].”

    Then you have to explain all the Quaternary megafaunal extinctions, as well as the abundant stone tools dating from 2.5 MYA and forward used to disarticulate, deflesh, and break open bones.

    Furthermore, the fact that humans have many more copies of the amylase enzyme in our saliva than chimpanzees indicates that we are adapted to breaking down root starches to a far greater degree than chimps. You don’t need amylase to process the sucrose, fructose, or fructans in fruits and vegetables…only starchy tubers.

    Finally, the Expensive Tissue Hypothesis:


    • as they are my “beliefs”, no real evidence is necessary

      i’ve already mentioned that it might be worth excluding what animals do in certain less-abundant situations…opportunism exists among other animals and survival instincts are just as strong

      as for the last 2.5 million years ?? i’m not arguing that humans HAVE been exclusively frugivorous during this period, just that maybe (i’ll use maybe, as you seem to not share my ‘beliefs’) we were supposed (better than ‘designed’ for us non-creationists) to be

      the tools argument means nothing….just because humans have been shown to use tools, doesn’t mean that we were ever supposed to be consuming meat…it just shows that we did….in fact, if anything, that humans need tools (yes, and the tools that the chimps make) is a great argument that we ARE NOT supposed to be eating meat….all carnivores and true omnivores are set up that way


      are humans omnivores ?????


      i’m not trying to convince you of anything, nor want to get into this much further….we might be able to chart evolution, but much of the why’s and wherefores are jut guessing games; and that’s before beliefs and prejudices get in the way…my belief is that our physiology supports frugivorism

      p.s if you wanna eat tubers, fill yer boots…i’m not sure what that has to do with eating meat

      • “as they are my “beliefs”, no real evidence is necessary”

        Astounding admission. Whew, does that ever save time.

        Incidentally, humans don’t have claws and killing fangs because they evolved a far more lethal killing weapon: a large brain.

        See: Kleiber’s Law

      • Great! More pseudoscience that claims:

        -A lack of huge canine teeth means we’re frugivores. No, our canines shrunk after we started using stone tools to deflesh carcasses. There were hominids with big, strong jaws (“robust” australopithecines): they went extinct, most likely because tools were more efficient.
        -That a longer GI transit time means meat is bad. No, it means we’re actually digesting and absorbing the nutrients it contains, not just flushing indigestible waste (“fiber”) out our butts.

        The rest is a bizarre collection of false statements, data out of context, and pure nonsense. There’s a reason none of these “papers” are ever published in any peer-reviewed journal: they’re laughable horseshit.


      • ““as they are my “beliefs”, no real evidence is necessary”

        Astounding admission. Whew, does that ever save time.”

        well, richard, that’s not exactly how things happened….i was asked what the healthiest way to eat is, for humans..considering nobody seems to be able to agree, i will skip definitives and answer what i believe it to be based on a variety of factors, including personal experience, that of peers and the idea that our physiology seems to support such a diet

        my beliefs are my own, though shared by others..they aren’t a fixed quantity, so i look forward to being edumacated by your evidence

        i’ve already learnt that we lost our fangs and claws through evolution and that, without tools, our brains can kill

        i await you to prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that i am wrong

        perhaps you could team up with your friend, mr.stanton whose own personal evolution has graced him with the ability to discern horseshit from the written word

        • Could you please show me the evidence for your statement “… our physiology seems to support such a diet” in terms of a LFRV diet being the healthiest for humans.

          As I said earlier, because we can physically get survive on such a diet, and get adequate nutrients from it (bar the agreed on B12, which in itself is so important for life that it suggest humans as a race cannot survive on this diet), does not mean it is optimal.

      • el-bo

        ” idea that our physiology seems to support such a diet”

        If you have that idea then it can only be that you only read vegan catechism, zero of which is peer reviewed science in terms of dietary physiology. Understand that there is absolutely zero dispute among current mainstream anthropologists, biologists and others in the field that human not only evolved eating animals but that we evolved BECAUSE we ate animals.

        Again, Kleiber’s Law


        To summarize, all mamals of the sma mass have the same metabolic rate. A 150 pound man and 150 pound chimp have the same metabolic rate. Morevover, all major organs have the same metabolic costs, with the exception of two: brain and gut, which are inversely related.

        “i’ve already learnt that we lost our fangs and claws through evolution and that, without tools, our brains can kill”

        You don’t learn very well, which is probably part of the problem.

        Our large brain with its capacity to devise and build killing tools is our evolved weapon.

        This claw and fang thing is another example of silly arguments you guys spread around endlessly, they never die, over years and years and yet you can find discussions of hominid brain size development as evolving a killing weapon in any decent text.

        It’s just like the dumb argument that we could not have evolved running to escape being prey because we can’t outrun many or any predators without stopping to realize the man’s chief predator is other man.

      • Could you please show me the evidence for your statement “… our physiology seems to support such a diet” in terms of a LFRV diet being the healthiest for humans

        this chart is a place to start


        as for the b12 ideas you put forth…do you really believe that our only resource or b12 is, and was, meateating ?? what about the effects of years of bad living upon upon absorbtion, intrinsic factor etc ??? what about the effects of over-sanitisation of our world and how this affects the way humans might be exposed to b12 ?? what about the fact that any human living wild in nature, just as other primates, would inadvertently end up eating creatures along with their produce ??

        where DID humans get b12 before eating meat ??

        b12 issues are at large for a much larger population of the world than can be represented by lowfat raw vegans, so clearly it’s more complicated than meatless diets causing b12 issues

        but, to be honest, i’m not really concerned with all this speculation regarding optimal diets..there is a huge element of doubt and, an absence of 100% proof on either side, means a huge chunk of belief (which is always questionable)

        i only really posted, here, as i thought the conclusions being drawn from a 6000 calorie sample of one day, were inaccurate

      • el-bo

        ” idea that our physiology seems to support such a diet”

        If you have that idea then it can only be that you only read vegan catechism, zero of which is peer reviewed science in terms of dietary physiology. Understand that there is absolutely zero dispute among current mainstream anthropologists, biologists and others in the field that human not only evolved eating animals but that we evolved BECAUSE we ate animals.

        Again, Kleiber’s Law


        To summarize, all mamals of the sma mass have the same metabolic rate. A 150 pound man and 150 pound chimp have the same metabolic rate. Morevover, all major organs have the same metabolic costs, with the exception of two: brain and gut, which are inversely related.

        “i’ve already learnt that we lost our fangs and claws through evolution and that, without tools, our brains can kill”

        You don’t learn very well, which is probably part of the problem.

        Our large brain with its capacity to devise and build killing tools is our evolved weapon.

        This claw and fang thing is another example of silly arguments you guys spread around endlessly, they never die, over years and years and yet you can find discussions of hominid brain size development as evolving a killing weapon in any decent text.

        It’s just like the dumb argument that we could not have evolved running to escape being prey because we can’t outrun many or any predators without stopping to realize the man’s chief predator is other man.


        nope…don’t read vegan catechism…is it good ??

        truth is i have very little interest in arguing with your beliefs, no matter how many peers agree with them

        clearly, we evolved eating animals….circumstance, and environment are a big factor in this, non ?? does this prove, without doubt, that – just because we have eaten meat for so long- that we were always supposed to ?? proof, if you will

        ah, so we didn’t have fangs and claws ?? i’m confused :o)

        so, while all other species were graced with the facility to procure the foods they were ‘designed’ to, the human race had to wait till their brains were evolved enough to chose their diet…

        as for 100% proof/evidence, the link you pasted starts with a sentence containing the words “strongly supports”…don’t know if that’s gonna cut it, but i’ll certainly have a read, when i’m more awake


      • “where DID humans get b12 before eating meat ??”

        Well, first of all, it was the high density nutrition of animal products (scavenged marrow and brain, initially) that made larger brained, smaller gutted hominoids out of small brain large gut primates (over a LONG time).

        But I do know how they got a lot of their B12 and you can too, raw and all natural!


        More on B12 here:


      • “does this prove, without doubt, that – just because we have eaten meat for so long- that we were always supposed to ?? proof, if you will”

        Go feed carrots to lions. Get back to me.

        “so, while all other species were graced with the facility to procure the foods they were ‘designed’ to, the human race had to wait till their brains were evolved enough to chose their diet…”

        It was the highly dense nutrition found in omega-3 rich marrow and brain that evolved smaller brains.

        Our evolution is not unlike lots of species that evolved over very long periods of time to exploit other resources. Here’s a recent article on the horse.


        Note that it takes a LONG time for the physiology to catch up.

        • So we evolved from apes because of the increase in omega 3? Apes natural diet is extremely high in the precursors of DHA which in studies has been shown to convert very efficiently when fish is low in the diet. That would mean the monkeys were already getting the equivalent dosage of omega 3 ( or more ) that you state allowed us to evolve. What? We evolved from getting the same dosage of omega 3? No. That’s not science. You’ll probably say it was the increased cholesterol. Humans produce around 2,000 per day on their own. One egg which is very high in cholesterol is roughly 280 or so. As you can see eating enough in the wild to evolve our brains doesn’t seem to make much sense does it. We can use pretty much anything to produce our own cholesterol, but mainly glucose. Apes produce an enzymes that allows them to use the cellulose in the greens they eat. That would mean they get the same amount of sugar as us which would also allow their bodies to produce what they need. So we evolved from increasing what? Nothing was increased pal. That would mean if we quadruple our calories per day, and nutrition our brains will grow double the size again from when it started however long ago you say? We’d have heads the size of watermelons that our neck couldn’t support LOL! YEA RIGHT! You don’t even know the age of that horse because our dating methods are inaccurate. I’m not religious, but science is science. You’re now stepping into religion with your beliefs. Were you there to see the brain growth? Were you there to see what animal that was? That’s micro evolution. Not an animal changing into another. Another science illiterate.

      • “where DID humans get b12 before eating meat ??”

        this was a rhetorical question…i’d already made it clear where i believe b12 sources would come from when foraging from fruits and greens of the ground etc, in an unsanitised world, without the xx amount of years that we were subjected to a ‘standard western diet’ (and the implications to our absorbtion) etc

        thanks for the b12 links…i’ll maybe look later

        as for all this carrion stuff….the equivalent of waiting for your mate to have enough of his ‘big mac’ meal, then gobbling up the fries that he’s left…opportunism, at best…..adam, below, has given some reasons why humans WOULD chose to eat the meat

        as for evolution….it just shows us what was done, but gives no indication as to what ‘should’ have been done..it gives an indication of what we ate, not what we were ‘supposed’ to eat

        none of your evolutionary argument disproves my belief that we are frugivorous creatures only that, for a given period of time, we haven’t been…

        basing your dietary habits upon an evolution borne of opportunism, survival instinct and necessity is one way of doing things but is it the best idea ??

        as for developing brain size to become killing machines ??…being able to invent tools to kill animals is one ability of the brain, but it’s primary function ??….brains are multi-function units…i had always thought evolution (and i have a bare understanding, at best) was more specific – a specific type of tooth to perform a specific type of action etc….

        isn’t meat just a catalyst for brain-size increase ?? isn’t the real growth and development to do with the social and communicating aspects that hunting necessitated ?? (probably dumb questions, but i really don’t know)…and here’s a question – if we completely stopped eating meat for a loooooong period, would our brains cease to grow (or start shrinking)

        anyways, after all that, i’d really like to bring back focus…..

        this article is not about evolution, but of a nutritional analysis of someone eating a frugivorous diet with, seemingly great, success…in such a case, and despite this being a paleo blog, evolution is pretty off-topic

        so, richard, what are your thoughts on harley’s success ?? and, in a ‘how many marbles in the jar’ fashion, you might try to predict when the ‘honeymoon period’ will end

        how about grok ?? to me, this guy supports the idea that the benefits of a paleo-omnivore diet are of an exclusionary nature – more about what is left out of the diet….the exclusion of these types of foods led to some great health gains…but ditching the meat (further following the route of exclusion of ‘bad’ ‘foods’) has led to further health gains

        grok has ‘seen’ your paleo-omni, and ‘raised’ you a frugivore…..in the case against humans ability to thrive on fruits, greens, shoots and seeds; grok is your ‘reasonable doubt’

    • Note that the ‘Expensive Tissue Hypothesis’ is not a recognised theory, its still a hypothesis. All evolutionary theory is just that: theory. Drawing conclusions from it is wishful thinking I’m afraid.
      Enzyme production isn’t exactly a massive adaptation on the evolutionary scale. Around 75% of the worlds population is lactose intolerant, which means that 25% continue to produce the enzyme into adulthood. That adaptation took somewhere between 5000-8000 years. Thats not even the blink of an eye in evolutionary terms.

      Since humans tend to eat whatever is available in that geographical location, and since we havent all diverged into different species, its reasonable to assume that we once all shared a common diet, and our physiology hasn’t changed much at all since then – and thus we are still adapted to whatever that diet might have been.
      This would be where you pick your theory of choice: Frugivore vs Omnivore. Unfortunately there isn’t enough physical evidence to support either one, so what were left with is our current physiology and what it tells us.

      • For some reason I couldn’t reply directly..
        Richard, I find it hard to believe that you thought I was suggesting that ‘the theory of evolution’ is just a theory. To clarify: I consider Evolution fact, not theory. If you had taken the whole post in context its pretty obvious what I meant, but I’ll makesure I articulate myself more good next time.

        What I was saying was that the different schools of thought around how and why humans evolved are not conclusive. Its all theory, not fact. You can pick and choose which ever theory you prefer, but you have to note that its not fact, its theory, and thus you can’t draw conclusions from it.

      • Richard I’m afraid that it most certainly is not settled science, and like I said above, thinking that it is is wishful thinking, sorry. There are plenty of other theories that contradict ‘Man the Hunter’ and its spin off’s. You have subscribed to that theory, and thats fine, but its still theory. Its a popular, no doubt about it, but there simply is nowhere near enough physical evidence to truly establish anything. The fossil record is amazingly small, and is still in question over its interpretation. That, plus the fact that bones don’t fossilise in the rainforest – which may or may not be extremely important.

      • Serge, please find me one biologist that does not not classify homo sapians as omnivores. It’s an established classification.

        If you feed an alligator only spinach, the alligator is still a carnivore. The terms carnivore, omnivore and herbivore do not reflect dietary preference of individuals but are rather cut and dried classifications, of which there is zero controversy in the scientific realm when it comes to humans.

      • Sarah, based on the available information about human anatomy, humans fit into the frugivore/faunivore category. I don’t understand why so many people think its as simple as carnivore/omnivore/herbivore. As if a frugivore is anything like a herbivore.

        You can pretty much classify any animal as an omnivore based on how most people understand the term. It really depends how you want to play this game: I will concede that since most humans eat both plants and animal/animal products, the science could be considered correct to classify humans as omnivores, since both plants and animals are generally easy to get and both provide a substantial amount of nutrition. I will not go out of my way to find biologists that agree with me so that I can win a debate on a blog.

        Based on comparative anatomy, physiology and psychology I will 100% disagree that humans should be classified as omnivores. If you disagree with me, that’s fine – I doubt it would be worth either or time to get into this discussion.

        I will mention that the classification ‘frugivore’ doesn’t mean 100% fruit eater. Frugivores typically eat 65-80% fruit, depending on season and location. The term implies the ideal food group for the main source of calories.

  8. Hey
    As you are a pro-paleo author I thought this was a relatively fair consideration of his diet, but there are a couple of things that I wanted to comment on, from a health and nutrition perspective:

    1) You state that at 65kg and 6’ tall, that he is skinny. On what basis are you stating that this is skinny. Skinny is a term that indicates having both a low body fat % and a low muscle mass. 65kg has often been used as the standard weight assessment for WHO reference ranges and requirements because 65-70kg is considered to be a healthy average weight for an adult male. Perhaps by today’s standards, which dictate that we should all look like Arnold Schwarzeneger if we want to be a healthy and attractive male, then he is skinny. But in most countries with people with a high level of centenarians, they do not, and have never had, bodybuilder physiques.

    Calling a 6’ tall 65kg male, especially one who is an ultra-endurance athlete, skinny is the male equivalent of calling a 55kg female fat. It is promoting disordered and irrational ideas about what a healthy reference range for a weight should be.

    A BMI of 19 is not underweight. It is on the lower end of the BMI ‘normal’ range, but it is in the normal category for a reason. Because it is. That isn’t taking into account the uselessness and invalidity of the BMI model, which disregards the significance of muscle mass and body fat %. Just using the standard BMI guidance alone, 19 is perfectly healthy and not skinny. Just because it is close in number to numbers like 17, which are skinny, each digit increment is considered significant, which is why they even use that model.

    2) You state that he would do well on his diet, given his previous symptoms, due to the absence of legumes, grains and dairy. This is a fair point and is very true. The inference that a paleo diet may therefore have also improved his symptoms, since it is also absent of these foods, but includes meat, may also be true. But it may also not be true. Many people with autoimmune disorders react to a whole host of proteins. This may include meats too for many people. Highly sensitive individuals often need to remove all concentrated proteins, plant and animal based, before they will go into remission.

    3) His use of B12 injections may sound like a fair point; certainly, it could be related to his lack of intake. But I do wish to point out that it is not uncommon for people with histories of autoimmune disorders, particularly crohns and celiac disease to have low intrinsic factor. B12 injection use is also very common amongst ultra-endurance athletes, regardless of diet. Because they have significantly elevated B12 requirements. However, ultimately, this is an area that I don’t consider worth debating further, since ultimately, you are right – there is as yet no evidence that it is possible to get B12 on a vegan diet without supplementing.

    4) Nutrients – I think it is important to note that the sample day you selected contained no green leafy vegetables, which play an important part of most low fat raw vegan diets. These provide more concentrated sources of omega 3 fats, amino acids and minerals.

    5) Re: Calories and chimps, this is true. Many primates do have different colon lengths and bacterial strains in quantities and locations different to humans, which enables them to extract more calories through SCFAs. Although I have never heard of the figure 65% of calories coming from these sources. That having been said, what is important to note is that primates tend to consume a significantly larger amount of their food volume from higher fibre foods like tougher vegetable matter and green leaves as well as more fibrous, astringent fruits. These tougher, more difficult to digest foods, would be uneconomical for humans, since they would require too much energy to digest for too little yield in terms of calories. But the sweeter fruits that we get commercially available are softer, and easier to digest. I find it unlikely that foods that are so high in simple carbohydrates and that are used so regularly by athletes, regardless of their diet, due to their ease of digestion and quick fuel release are such poor sources of calories.

    6) Protein and urea – I think you have misunderstood your clinical biochemistry here. The reference ranges for all blood work come from a standard western dieter. This means a high protein consumer. Urea is a waste product of protein metabolism and hence is used as a marker. People on a low protein diet have low urea because there is less waste. That this is not normal is not a bad thing.

    Go back and look in your nutritional biochemistry books and you will find that this is a good thing. Breakdown products of protein metabolism are harmful to the body. They are stressful to the major organs of the body and to the blood vessels. Urea is the least toxic metabolic end product the body can naturally create from protein to excrete the waste products safely.

    There is nothing beneficial about having higher urea levels on a low protein diet. This would indicate possible negative nitrogen balance, since it would indicate that the body was creating more protein breakdown products like urea, despite having a low protein intake.

    7) Protein and requirements – humans have the capacity to adapt to varying protein intakes, depending on regular intake of protein and depending on total calories consumed. If you go back and review your biochemistry books, you will find two things under the protein section: Adaptation and protein:energy ratio.

    Essentially, because the body uses carbohydrates preferentially as a source of fuel (an indication that our evolutionary diet must have predominated in carbohydrates), and will use protein as its last reserve source of fuel (ie. Only when there is insufficient carbohydrates), more calories from carbohydrates reduces protein requirements. This is because breakdown of the bodies own muscle protein for fuel is reduced and hence less proteins are needed to be replaced. Dietary proteins are also not needed to be broken down for fuel by deamination and transamination. Hence the protein:energy ratio.

    The amino acid requirements are also not fixed, as I said, due to protein adaptation. The idea behind protein adaptation is that the more protein the body consumes, the less efficient it becomes at recycling proteins into the amino acid pool and the more dependent it becomes on external sources of protein. The less protein the body consumes, the more conservative it becomes with its protein use and the more efficient it becomes in recycling amino acids into the amino acid pool. Biochemists have identified that the maximum level of adaptation to a low protein diet is 0.29g/kg of total protein. This is called obligatory nitrogen requirements, because we must consume at least this amount of protein, regardless of our carbohydrate and calorie intake, in order to maintain nitrogen balance.

    Adaptation does take time (up to 6 weeks, depending on history of protein intakes), but since Harley has been on a vegan diet for 10 years and a raw vegan diet for 4 years, he will have certainly adapted to lower protein intakes, which means his amino acid requirements will not reflect the WHO estimated requirements.

    Remember, the WHO figures, like all RDAS are estimates of what will be sufficient for 95-97% of the population, accounting for a variety of factors, including calorie intake, carbohydrate intake, activity levels, sleep patterns, medication use and typical nutrient intakes. They are not an indication of what each person actually needs, nor the limit of their capacity to adapt to lower protein intakes. But instead, reflect what will be a safe amount for most people to consume, accounting for as many variables as is realistically possible.

    Hence the elevated figures of 1.5g/kg for athletes is based on a standard western diet consumer (ie. A consumer already consuming a large amount of protein in their diet, especially from animal based origins). Although he will need higher protein intakes than a non-athletic raw vegan is certainly true. But the 1.5g/kg cannot be applicable, since it does not reflect protein adaptation capacity, nor protein:energy ratio. Harley eats more calories from simple carbohydrates and therefore needs less protein. Think about it realistically: If he wasn’t getting enough amino acids, he would go into negative nitrogen balance and therefore would be consistently losing muscle mass. This would mean he would be unable to continuously participate in ultra-endurance athletics. Since he has been on a raw vegan diet for 4 years, and has not only maintained his weight but has gained weight over this last year (hence I don’t think the 65kg is accurate anymore), this would be literally physiologically and biochemically impossible. He would have been in hospital within the first year of his lfrv diet, since he has been doing ultra-endurance athletics since before he went raw.

    It is also remember that the WHO is not unbiased in its assessment of nutrient requirements. It is the joint effort of WHO and UNFAO (ie. The UN food and agricultural organisation). There is a significant point to remember with this: The WHO state that between 0.56g/kg-0.66g/kg is the safe estimate for 95-97% of the people in developing countries to maintain nitrogen balance, despite the fact that in developing countries, they struggle to get enough total calories more often than not. Yet in western developed countries, they say that 0.78-0.83g/kg is the safe estimate for 95-97% of the population to maintain nitrogen balance, despite the fact that most people have no trouble getting enough calories. Often the reverse is true.

    Why is this? I believe there are two reasons:

    Firstly, because in the developing countries people have got used to (ie. Adapted to) a higher protein intake and therefore will require more in order to avoid going into a temporary state of negative nitrogen balance whilst their body readapts to a different protein intake.

    Secondly, because the UNFAO want people in developing countries, who consume the most animal products than in any other countries, to continue to consume large amounts of protein, since this is beneficial to the economies of these countries (and therefore to the UNFAO). If they told people that they could adapt to protein intakes as low as 0.3g/kg if they increased their carbohydrate and calorie intake, despite going into a temporary state of negative nitrogen balance until adaptation fully occurs, people would realise that they don’t actually need to spend all that money on expensive animal products and would realise they have been consuming more than they actually needed for all this time.

    If people actually started lowering their protein intake, they would start to notice that problems like diabetes, heart disease, cancer, osteoporosis, auto-immune disorders and other diseases that can be linked to excess protein consumption, reverse. This would not be beneficial to an economy built on animal based agriculture and modern medicine.

    8) Fructose. Unfortunately, I have seen a lot of misrepresentation of Robert Lustigs work recently. Lustig himself is VERY clear that WHOLE food carbohydrate sources of fructose are not problematic to health. The problems associated with poor fructose metabolism are a direct result of the consumption of refined sources of fructose (ie. Sources that have had their fibre removed). He is very clear that fruit juices and high fructose vegetables (like carrots and beets) can cause problems. But these foods will NOT cause problems when consumed as whole foods. The body is perfectly able to process fructose when fibre is present naturally with the food. But when the fibre and the fructose are not bound in a whole food, (as with cane sugar, syrups like agave, honey, high fructose-corn syrup, glucose-fructose syrup, fruit and sweet vegetable juices) the body is unable to process fructose in the same way since it does not recognise it. Hence it goes straight to the liver, where it is not processed efficiently. The reasons why refining seems to impair the livers ability to process fructose safely is not yet clear, but the observation has been very clearly and emphatically made by Lustig.

    This is called scientific cherry picking; selecting information that is convenient to ones argument and representing it in a way that appears to confirm it, whilst deleting key pieces of information that do not confirm it.

    Now to be clear, I am not accusing you of cherry picking necessarily. It is possible you are deliberately misrepresenting his research to present an unnecessarily carbohydrate-phobic, fruit-phobic point. But I realise that is also possible that you have not actually read any of Lustigs papers, or his articles, or listened to his TV/Radio interviews. For you would be well aware of what his research says and would not have posted this if you had. I believe it is more probable that you have read about fructose elsewhere from trusted a source of information that you respect and rather than investigating the subject yourself, you have believed what you had read and repeated it.

    Unfortunately, the trouble with biochemistry is that people memorise the overwhelming pieces of information for exams, but don’t actually consider its implications in clinical nutrition, particularly when hearing about ideas from other authors, such as high protein, low carb, low fruit diets. And wouldn’t be so easily persuaded by such ideas.

    9) EFA’s – You say his intake would have been higher if he had eaten some nuts and seeds. This is true, but its also true that eating more tender green leaves, like romaine lettuce and spinach in quantity, would have produced higher intakes. You state that short chain ALAs are poorly converted to long chain fats like EPA and DHA. This is a generalisation that is not true. If we weren’t able to convert fats properly and easily, our body wouldn’t have evolved the mechanism to do so. Unfortunately, this idea has been so heavily propagated by the supplement industry and the fish industry that people have once again neglected to remember their biochemistry and the scientific method.

    What do I mean by the scientific method in this regard? The scientific method states that if you have a theory that you want to test, you must devise an experiment to put the theory to the test. In order to do this, you must first make sure you are asking the right question. This is the most difficult part, and experiments often reveal that infact the wrong question was being asked. The next part is to try to identify as many variables as possible that could influence the results when formulating the hypothesis to be tested. Then the experiment must take place, with results recorded and reviewed, and compared with the original hypothesis. Then one must ask what variables could have influenced the results and what could be adjusted for future experiments to clarify the conclusions. This is called evaluation.

    What has been observed is that in some people tested, ALA from flax seeds are not well converted to EPA and DHA. What variables could there be?

    Well we know that firstly, there are other sources of ALA besides flax. We also know that flax is poorly digested, so its worth questioning what influence this has and whether other sources might yield better conversion. For example, honeydew melons are very easy to digest and are a good source of ALA.

    We know that protein that naturally accompanies fats is also important for its proper absorption, utilisation and conversion. Flax oils, which may address the problem of digestion of flax, will be devoid of oil

    We know that in order for conversion to take place, we need sufficient: glucose, magnesium, vitamin C, manganese, zinc, selenium, B vits. These need to not only be present in sufficient amounts in the diet, but we must not be deficient in these either. Since many people are deficient in magnesium and zinc at the very least, and since most people consume only enough vitamin C to avoid scurvy, rather than for optimal biochemical functioning, especially given their levels of oxidative stress due to alcohol consumption, refined sugar consumption, medication use etc. It is easy to see why the conversion pathways would be poor in some people.

    As EPA and DHA intakes increase in the diet, in frequency and quantity, ALA conversion reduces. Just as with all things, the body becomes lazier and conserves energy where possible to improve short term efficiency, when there is less of a perceived need to do something. This is a really important point for vegetarians and vegans.

    Consumption of large intakes of omega 6, saturated fat and regular trans fat intakes all increase omega 3 requirements and may reduce the activity of the conversion pathways.

    Some medications can interfere with conversion pathways and can deplete the body of micronutrients that are essential for conversion. It is unknown whether the subjects in ALA conversion experiments were taking any such medications. If so, this could play a factor in this.

    Hence it is not known whether his ALA conversion will actually be poor and your assessment that if he had an omega 3 test (which I agree would be interesting to see) it would certainly come out deficient is based on pure assumption with no evidence to support the theory.

    10) Preformed vitamin A – clearly since Harley has good ,levels of vitamin A, a raw vegan diet is not missing out on the consumption of vitamin A. One of the benefits of plant based precursors in my opinion is that the body can decide how much it needs to convert and how much to excrete. With preformed vitamin A, there is no option available. Of course some people do not convert vitamin A as well, but again, as with EFAs it is unscientific to state that this means that vegan diets are missing out. What this means is that we must look at the clinical variables that will negate beta carotene -> vitamin A conversion and change these circumstances if one wants to consume a vegan diet and get enough vitamin A.

    11) Creatine – our bodies produce creatine in the liver. Hence this is not an essential nutrient. How do you think other animals that people get their creatine from in the diet have creatine there? Most mammals synthesise creatine, just like humans do.

    12) Carnosine – our bodies make carnosine too.

    13) Choline – this is not only found in animal based sources. And bananas are actually a pretty good source of it. Infact, if you go on nutritiondata.com and insert his diet into there, you will see that he significantly exceeds the National Academy of Science recommended intake of 550mg for males. He actually consumes almost 3 times as much (1435mg).
    Take care
    Adam x

    • Adam – good info. I had no idea banana’s had so much choline.

      Can you explain how non-endurance athlete raw vegans get adequate micro nutrients?

      • Hey Scott

        Just to clarify, the banana portion of his diet (for the sample day listed here) contained 660mg which in and of itself exceeds the proposed RDA by NAS. And the the 1435mg was for the whole days food intake.

        I am not an athlete, nor are most low fat raw vegans, so this answer is simple: Fruits and vegetables in sufficient amounts :o)

        Seriously though, I recommend you download CRON-o-meter. Its a free, easy to use diet analysis program. Takes up no space on the hard drive and seconds to download and install. It will give you an idea of how easy it is to meet micronutrient requirements on a low fat raw vegan diet.

        Harleys sample food intake for that day contained very little in the way of tender green leafy vegetables (like romaine lettuce, spinach etc). It is a good idea to consume some of these regularly in my opinion to ensure sufficient micronutrient intakes, although in fairness, it is easy to meet micronutrient requirements without them, as long as there is variety in the diet. I just think green leaves, being more concentrated in micronutrients, are a good supplement to a raw fruit based diet to ensure you get enough micronutrients.

        As Julianne pointed out, the only micronutrient that one cannot get is B12. Some would consider this debatable if one were consuming unwashed, freshly picked organic produce, especially greens, but I think it is fair to say that within the foods themselves, there is no identified B12.

        All the others are not only easy to meet, but to significantly exceed. Most of my micronutrients are several hundred % of the RDA, some several thousand % of the RDA. As long as one is eating at least 2 different types of fruit as sources of calories per day, ideally 3 different types, plus 4+% calories from tender greens, all micronutrients will be exceeded significantly, whether one is consuming 3000 calories per day or 9000 calories per day.

        Take care

        Adam x

    • Please excuse some of the typos; I just re-read it. I write very fast and sometimes my head and my hands run away with me and occassional errors occur. I am sure most readers will be able to make sense of the few errors, but I want to point out a couple that I can immediately see, just for clarity:

      Where I mentioned about developing countries twice, in regards to higher protein intakes, I obviously meant developed western countries. Developing countries clearly have a lower intake of protein typically.

      Where I said about protein and fat being important with regards to EFA conversion and flax, I stated that flax oil will solve the problem of poor digestion but not the problem of the lack of oil. That should read the lack of protein obviously. lol. Oil without oil is…air? :o)

      Take care

      Adam x

      • “In such an environment, before we discovered tools and fire, the only access to sources of meat would have been through scavenging carrion. This would not be a reliable source of food..”

        It probably wasn’t but for some few populations over a long enough period of time, like millions of years, for brains to expand and guts to shrink.

        Primate scavenging of carrion is the only thing that makes sense. However, it was not the meat they were scavenging, if at all: it was the marrow of the large bones and the brain that carnivores could not get at with claw & tooth. It took smashing with the most primitive tool on the planet: stones.

    • Adam – I appreciate the detail you have put into this reply.

      As you eat a raw vegan diet (and I respect your choice not to eat animals) it is important to be able to justify it nutritionally, and from a practical point of view, make sure you get all the nutrients you need to be healthy. However this does not mean a raw vegan diet is the optimal human diet. It only means a human can live on one. Some clearly cannot (there are many examples where people have had to give up a LFRV diet for health reasons).
      Show me the evidence that this is optimal, from a biological, biochemical or evolutionary point of view.
      I cannot imagine any hunter gatherer human given the choice would choose anything but the most nutritionally dense food available. Anything else does not make sense. Would a human forage for many hours a day to gather ripe fruit to the tune of 10 kilos a day per person or more, when a one animal could provide sustenance for many, as well as much easier source of essential amino acids and fats. LFRV is only possible in an agricultural society or an ideal environment, with many varities of fruit and vegetables growing to provide sustenance all year round. (And Cron-o-meter to make sure you are covering your nutritional requirements) Show me such a traditional hunter gatherer environment. Why would humans have willingly spread across the globe to places that did not support a LFVD? See post http://donmatesz.blogspot.com/2011/03/more-raw-truth-about-raw-vegan-diets.html

      • Hey Julianne

        It is true that just because a diet can be nutritionally justifiable, it does not make it optimal. Whilst I personally believe that a fruit based lfrv diet makes the most sense to me, I am willing to be clear that as yet, there is absolutely no evidence that this is an optimal diet, insofar as that there are no known long term groups, tribes or communities that have eaten an exclusively lfrv diet.

        Does this mean that this is NOT optimal, no I don’t think so. The same of course applies to a paleo diet. That it can be made nutritionally possible, is not an indication that it is optimal.

        Of course there is evidence that people have historically eaten a paleo-esque diet, this does not mean that it is optimal. What this does mean is that this is what has occurred at some point in our history as humans and therefore we know that it is possible to support ourselves as a species on such a diet. But is there evidence that people who lived on a paleolithic diet were generally centenarians? No there is not. Of course, this is doesn’t necessarily mean that they couldn’t have been – afterall, the terrains that most people lived on during paleolithic periods would have had numerous predators, which could result in our premature demise. But it doesn’t mean that they necessarily would have been either.

        I think that it is pointless even discussing whether one diet or the other is optimal for humans, since there is insufficient long term evidence for either diet. The only thing that weighs in the paleo diet favour is that there is evidence that it is at least possible to sustain the diet for a lifetime. It is possible to sustain a SAD diet for a lifetime too however. I think that the best we can hope for is to let time tell. We may not get to find out in our own lifetime whether one diet or the other could truly be considered optimal for humans as a generalised species, since that would take large numbers of people, following a diet for an entire lifetime, and monitoring pathologies, death ages and causes of death and general health and clinical markers via diagnostic tools such as bloodwork.

        I completely agree that a hunter gatherer, along with all other humans, would likely choose the most efficient sources of food possible. I believe this is why meat has long been a sought after commodity across the globe. Until recently, humans have been primarily concerned with basic survival needs. They have been interested in the most economic food choices possible. Certainly in many areas of the globe a fruit based diet simply would not be economical or viable; the types of fruits available in certain parts of the globe would not be available in sufficient abundance, and the types would be too poor nutritionally to be a reliable food source.

        However I believe that if we ever did consume a fruit based diet, as did other primates, it would have been in a tropical rainforest environment. In such an environment, before we discovered tools and fire, the only access to sources of meat would have been through scavenging carrion. This would not be a reliable source of food. I believe that in such an environment, where abundance would be available, we would have evaluated food still on what is most economical (ie. what would be calorie dense), but also on what was most easily digestible and appealing to the senses. We would be attracted to food based on colour, smell, taste, texture and its effect on our digestive system. Tropical fruits would be more appealing to the senses than carrion in my opinion.

        There is no doubt in my mind that if humans did indeed eat a fruit based diet at some point in history, they eventually began consuming animal flesh on a regular basis. Similarly, I have no doubt that we eventually discovered cooked starches in the form of things like sweet potatoes. When we did so, of course, we would have been more encouraged to continue doing so. Evolution made sure of this, by way of our reward system, which is an intrinsic part of our motivational system.

        As humans, we are motivated to select the most pleasure promoting, pain avoiding, energy conserving strategies to meet our needs possible. We are rewarded with ever increasing amounts of dopamine for more stimulating activities. Higher calorie foods = preferential strategy. Our brain is hardwired to form neural nets to highly rewarding strategies. Proteins like delta-fosB make us much more likely to keep wanting to reactivate these neural nets in preference to less rewarding strategies.

        If we ate a fruit based diet, then obviously the higher calorie fruits would have once been the most motivating. But since starches are generally higher in calories per gram, these would be considered more efficient comparatively. Similarly, since meat is also more efficient as a source of fuel, then we would be even more motivated to desire that.

        However this does not mean that such foods are optimal, since an optimal food would provide the maximum benefits with the least amount of consequences. An optimal food would be one that we would evolve and adapt to consume with the least stress and harm occurring to the body. And yet we do not find that. What we find is that the body is not well equipped to deal with high intakes of protein. It struggles to do so and hence we find a range of health consequences associated with doing so.

        Indeed, in terms of optimum, what we would also expect is that one should find benefits in terms of longevity promotion. And yet what we find is that most populations with high centenarians have a low % of calories from protein and fat. Indeed, some research suggests that methionine restriction may be more effective as an anti-aging strategy than calorie restriction.

        In a tropical environment, I doubt there would be a significant effort involved, most of the time, in foraging for food, since there would lots of fruit trees around. Sure, there would be some effort, but there would be lots of effort involved in hunting. What we find is that in many areas where people are dependant on hunting, they don’t eat meat every day because some days they are not successful.

        Personally, I believe that meat eating started out of desperation, and eventually became something desirable to our reward system because of its high-calorie and high protein content per gram.

        The thing is, efficiency does not = optimal. Nor does high reward = optimal. We find this with refined, processed foods in the modern day. These are highly efficient sources of food; high calories, low in fibre and water and therefore easy to eat in a short space of time. And therefore more rewarding to the nervous system than any other foodstuff. Yet completely suboptimal from a health perspective.

        Your ultimate conclusion – that a lfrv diet is only possible in an ideal (tropical rainforest) environment where sufficient abundance is available, or in an agricultural based society is absolutely accurate. I wouldn’t disagree with this. I don’t think any rational person could. There is obviously a reason we stopped eating a lfrv diet, if we ever did eat it. Because it was no longer possible to rely upon fruit as a source of calories as our environment changed. As we moved away from a tropical rainforest environment, we became more dependant on what food was available. Which was often starches and meat.

        Obviously, even a cooked vegan diet wasn’t always possible in most places, which is why we don’t really see much evidence for long term communities of vegan dieters throughout history. It has always been of the utmost priority to get enough calories to survive, not only at an individual level, but at a societal level. As populations increased, this became increasingly more difficult.

        Thanks for the link. As for your question and his question about why people would spread out across the globe over the last 50,000 years. I think the answer is clear; to explore new terrains that could be possible sources of safety, food and settlement. I am under no delusion that we were eating a raw vegan diet, if we ever were, within the last 50,000 years. Infact, I don’t think we have eaten an exclusively raw diet for at least 850,000 years.

        50,000 years ago when we started moving out of Africa, most people were not in the tropical rainforest environments. We had already been forced out of that environment. Why is anyones guess. Mine, probably either increasing populations or environmental reasons (eg. destruction of the natural habitat). Obviously, when we moved out of that tropical rainforest environment onto the savannahs, we were at increased danger from predation, so I doubt it was a willing move.

        As we spread across the globe, we probably looked for places that would both be suitable for a habitat both in terms of safety and in terms of food availability. Finding fruit was the last thing on our mind. It had been for a long time. Survival was the priority. I don’t think humans have ever intellectualised our diet in terms of trying to find an environment that would be suitable for a vegan diet.

        However now, we are in a position to question what might be optimal and what our evolutionary diet might have been. Of course, what our evolutionary diet may have looked like is impossible to tell. That we have evidence of consuming a paleo diet at some point in our history, some people cite as evidence that this was our evolutionary diet. But this is not really a definitive conclusion as much as an assumption. That is like someone 50,000 years from now looking at fossils of our body and postulating that our evolutionary diet must have been a diet predominating in refined carbohydrates, alcohol and dairy. all that does is give us a window into some point in hospital. interesting certainly. Useful possibly. Definitive it is not.

        Unfortunately, a tropical rainforest environment is not the most conducive to preserving fossil evidence, which makes it difficult to fully be sure at what point we evolved into humans and what our diet looked like at that time.

        I think that for now, since we have insufficient information, speculating on what an evolutionary diet is just theory.

        Optimal – now that is something that we can only start to learn, and we have to start by taking it back to basics; what food groups represent the highest quantity of protective factors for health and the highest quantities of nutrients, versus the minimum damage?

        Take care

        Adam x

    • Adam: You make some breathtakingly false statements.

      “Essentially, because the body uses carbohydrates preferentially as a source of fuel (an indication that our evolutionary diet must have predominated in carbohydrates),”

      Every animal, mammalian or not, uses glucose as its source of fuel: that’s how cellular respiration works! This includes all the obligate carnivores like tigers, cheetahs, lions, wolves, hyenas, etc. Would you say that their evolutionary diet must have predominated in carbohydrates?

      Right away you’ve shown that you’re willing to completely ignore basic biology in order to support your bizarre dietary views, disqualifying any further statements you make.

      “The body is perfectly able to process fructose when fibre is present naturally with the food. But when the fibre and the fructose are not bound in a whole food … the body is unable to process fructose in the same way since it does not recognise it.”

      This is complete horseshit. Someone doesn’t understand chemistry or basic digestion. If fructose is “bound” to fiber, it’s not fructose anymore…it’s part of an indigestible polysaccharide. And if it’s bound to itself or digestible “fiber”, it’s a FODMAP. You can go here for a table which shows the fructose content vs. fructose bound in FODMAPs (including polyols, which they break out separately):
      You’ll note that the fructose in bananas, mangos, grapes, and watermelons is entirely sucrose or free fructose, as it is for most fruits.

      Fiber may cause the fructose to be absorbed more slowly…but it doesn’t cause it to be processed any differently.

      I don’t have time to deal with the rest of your post, which is mostly a bunch of n=1 and speculation.


      • Hey JS

        That is a fair point you have made about glucose and carnivores. I think that to state that I was ‘willing’ to forget about this aspect of biology is a bit of an overstatement. I do not really know a great deal about non-human biology. I assume that since obligate carnivores do not have a requirement for dietary carbohydrates that most of their energy comes from beta-oxidation of fats and synthesis of ketones from proteins.

        Though it is certainly true that our body does use carbohydrates preferentially as a source of fuel, since they are the most energy efficient source of fuel. Fats take a little more energy to use as a fuel, and since the brain cannot use them, protein is required to supplement fat use as a fuel, which is even more energy expensive. Not to mention the fact that proteins are not a clean burning source of fuel, producing metabolic waste products that carbohydrate use does not.

        To then say that a statement that you find disagreement with disqualifies anything else that I say is not in my opinion, a sound approach to learning. Nobodys knowledge is beyond questioning or reproach.

        🙂 I knew the use of the word bound would come back to bite me. Yet unfortunately, I was unable to find another word that best fitted what I was trying to illustrate; Whole foods do come as a bound package. Everything is contained within the whole. A refined food is fragmented – it has had things removed. When fructose is present as a whole food, ie. with fibre, the body is more efficiently able to handle the fructose and it does not cause the damage to the liver that refined fructose causes. This is what Lustigs work shows. Even Lustig says that the specific explanation of why the body is less able to handle refined fructose is not clear, but that obviously, whole food sources are healthy and so fibre obviously is the key factor.

        Indeed, it may likely just be that it is as simple as you say; that the fibre slows the release of the fructose, which means the body has more time to process it and more control over its release.

        What words would you choose other than process differently or more/less efficiently then if you would disagree with the statement that the body processes refined and wholefood sources of fructose differently? When one source of fructose turns to fat in the liver and can slowly causes cirrhosis, whereas the other does not? For it certainly sounds like they are being processed by the liver and the body differently to me.

        If you don’t feel like replying to the rest of my post, that is your prerogative. No point in wasting your time, if that is what you feel it is.

        Take care

        Adam x

  9. If Durian dervives happiness from his diet more power to him. An endurance athlete I think are generally not a archetype of health the average person would aspire to. Frankly he and most of the serious adherents of LFRV and Frutariansim look emaciated and frail. For him it’s obviously a partial adaptation to endurance training in general the lower the mass the lower the expenditure of energy to propel him. It sounds like he and his wife have some sort of alternate living arrangements where he doesn’t have to work on a regular basis, and can spend most of his day biking, napping , or munching on fruit. This diet seems incredibly poorly suited who has a family or any normalized life style.

    Reading the 30 Banana a Day website it appears tons of people have difficulty with, and still have a myriad of health problems. If the diet is that excellent and that conducive to positive health, small deviations shouldn’t elicit such large problems. If anything the diet should create some health buffer and reserve. Almost uniformly when someone has issues with the diet the response is “you’re doing it wrong”.

    I eat somewhat paleo style though you will take my milk and cheese from my cold dead hands. Over the past few weeks I’ve been working night and day (I’m a small business owner), a combination of consulting and hard physical labor in asbestos and hazardous material containments. Sleep has been irregular an short in supply, but I was able to make it through in large part I believe do to my diet (limitted carbs, lots of healthy fat and protein). After the three weeks my deadlift and overhead press also went up though my bodyweight was down slightly from 178 to 174 (I’m 6’1).

    Lastly these guys aren’t live and let live. I don’t care if you want to eat a wheelbarrel of fruit a day. I’m not sure it’s good advice but if it makes you happy, good for you. The Vegan crew seems to want to prevent me from eating meat though. In general they seem to harbor what I consider an evil philosophy equating slaughtering livestock for consumption with murder of people. In general there seems to be a lot of mushy thinking in the fruit crew. People celebrating a lack of sex drive etc. The first time a vegan tries to get between me and some beef though, they are going upside down.

      • I believe it. A 105 pound woman was contemplating going on a multi-week water fast there. If you are 105 pounds unless you are 4’10 you don’t need a water fast – you need a 16-oz t-bone medium rare.

    • “In general there seems to be a lot of mushy thinking in the fruit crew.”

      Your brain requires saturated fat for development and function. I read an article somewhere that said that if you increase your saturated fat intake (found mostly in animal fat, with coconut being an exception) that it helps depression. It may be anecdotal, but they weren’t kidding. My husband started taking coconut butter and his mood has improved greatly. I also noticed that I have better concentration since I started eating extra butter.

      If people want to eat vegetarian or vegan (whatever floats your boat you know), maybe they should look into getting some coconut in the diet. It seriously might help them.

  10. Adam, I’m curious as to where you get your data on increased conversion from ALA to the longer chain omega 3 s. I’ve seen figures of genetic variants ranging from 0-21% but not of consistent or robust up regulation due to consumption of a low amount of DHA and ALA. Also, vegetarians are known to be lower than omnivores in creatine via skeletal muscle biopsy and benefit both in cognitive and athletically compared to placebo supplemented vegetarians from creatine in blinded controlled trials, whereas omnivores did not benefit cognitively – this would suggest to me if not a deficiency, then at least a sub-optimal state. This can be vital as phosphocreatine reserves in the brain seem to help with energy efficiency and reduce oxidative stress in key areas, such as the substantial nigra.

    • Maybe this study:
      Dietary intake and status of n23 polyunsaturated fatty acids in
      a population of fish-eating and non-fish-eating meat-eaters,
      vegetarians, and vegans and the precursor-product ratio of a-linolenic
      acid to long-chain n23 polyunsaturated fatty acids: results from the
      EPIC-Norfolk cohort1–3
      Ailsa A Welch, Subodha Shakya-Shrestha, Marleen AH Lentjes, Nicholas J Wareham, and Kay-Tee Khaw
      Am J Clin Nutr 2010;92:1040–51. Printed in USA.  2010 American Society for Nutrition

      • I don’t have access to fulltext, so someone else will have to take a look at this one…but I note the following: “There were only 5 vegan men and 5 vegan women in this study.”

        Also keep in mind that we’re measuring FFA in the blood here, which may or may not have anything to do with how much is actually being converted and incorporated into cells. There is good evidence that EPA and DHA strongly affects inflammatory markers, whereas ALA does not. For example:

        Circulation. 2003;108:155. Habitual Dietary Intake of n-3 and n-6 Fatty Acids in Relation to Inflammatory Markers Among US Men and Women. Tobias Pischon, MD, MPH; Susan E. Hankinson, ScD; Gökhan S. Hotamisligil, MD, PhD; Nader Rifai, PhD; Walter C. Willett, MD, DrPH; Eric B. Rimm, ScD

        “…We observed statistically significant inverse associations between n-3 fatty acid intake and plasma levels of soluble TNF receptors 1 and 2. The associations were restricted to the long-chain PUFAs EPA and DHA and not ALA. We found similar albeit weaker inverse associations for CRP but not IL-6 levels.”

        This supports the case that usefully bioactive amounts are not being converted, and that free blood levels of EFA aren’t necessarily relevant to tissue levels.


  11. A lot has been covered already, but I want to answer your question about decreased libido. Harley had a vasectomy which artificially raises testosterone levels. Other low fat raw vegans have noticed lower libido levels.

  12. Julianne, you would do yourself a huge favourite by actually reading the work of Douglas Graham, namely the 80/10/10.

    Graham is very explicit over his advice that one should eat only maxium four meals a day. For someone who has been on a cooked diet for her whole life, this would be impossible at first. It takes time for the stomach to adapt to the high-water content foods that take lot of space in the digestive tracks. Harley, just stated in his recent blog entry, that he eats three meals a day. The idea is to get decebtly loaded at every meal (500-2000kals) as opposed to constant eating throughout the day.

    lfrv, 80/10/10, is the only proper ‘paleo-diet’ unless you eat your meat raw (which I do not recommend under any conditions)

    • “lfrv, 80/10/10, is the only proper ‘paleo-diet’ unless you eat your meat raw (which I do not recommend under any conditions)”

      There is no problem with eating raw-meat. Even rotting or spoiled meat is no problem, search rawpaleoforum for more information. Been raw-vegan for 6 months and it gave me far more health problems (teeth, overall strength, muscle-mass, weight, weak bones , bloating ect.) then the 2+ years of raw fat meat eating that I do now. If you have a health problem the doctor can’t fix try rotting meat it can save your life.

      • “wasn’t he a gymnast”

        this point is worth addressing…people, in arguing over this video, often talk abut how it’s nothing special and achievable on many diets..

        it is, of course, true that this kind of athletic/gymnastic ability is available to those on any diet…it’s the training that’s key, here…think phelps et al – those who achieve tremendous athletic feats, in spite of their diets

        the key to this video, is not that his diet is responsible for these feats…..the key here is that his ‘rabbit food’ is not a hinderance

        doug is able to continue working out like a teenage athlete despite his diet flying in the face of detractors who argue that meat is necessary for strength…i say ‘strength’ and not ‘build, as build is an issue of vanity

        some might suggest that doug and harley are a little too thin (based on perceived social norms, that do change), but i challenge anyone to assert they are frail (an image, normally associated with the ‘meatless)

    • Aound the 2:00 Minute Mark, bodyweight uphill carry. No, just no. Good lord why would you film that. As mildly athletic skeletons go, hes fit. Seeing emaciated guys do bodyweight exercises is less impressive though, because there simply not a lot of body mass to move. How much can he overhead press, squat, or deadlift? All great exercises for muscle mass and bone density.

      I’d put 10 to 1 odds on Clarance Bass choking him out all the while with a steak clenched between his teeth 🙂

      • “I’d put 10 to 1 odds on Clarance Bass choking him out all the while with a steak clenched between his teeth”

        You think of stuff like this? How old are you?

    • “I don’t know what he was, but he has been on a ‘primal-paleo-diet’, ala low-fat-raw-vegan-diet for over 25 years.”

      Ha, I predicted this particular misappropriation some time ago. “More paleo than paleo.”

      But it simply doesn’t wash on any level. While it may be “primal” or “evolutionary,” based on what? It’s not based on what our hominid ancestors had to eat to fuel the development of large brains, thereby rendering large guts for digesting heaps of fiber too metabolically expensive. It’s based upon what our primate ancestors ate, minus the bugs, worms, grubs, other primates, and their own feces (high source of B12).

      The Paleolithic began 2.5 mya at the advent of the first stone tools (in large part, for breaking open large bones and skulls and butchering meat). Using tools to hunt, kill and butcher meat, fish and fowl is a _defining characteristic_ of the paleolithic.

      So if y’all want to give your diet the name of a geologic epoch, something like “The Miocenic Diet” would be more appropriate.

      Careful about the reenactment, though. It’s one thing to live in a cave; quite another to swing from trees and masturbate and copulate in public.

  13. The threading is becoming unweildy on some of the longer ones and plus, the permalink to the comment as sent out in the email does not seem to function. Alas…

    eo-bo says:

    “none of your evolutionary argument disproves my belief that we are frugivorous creatures only that, for a given period of time, we haven’t been…”

    Yea, for like the last 15 million years is all.

    “asing your dietary habits upon an evolution borne of opportunism, survival instinct and necessity is one way of doing things but is it the best idea ??”

    Yea, because as we all know, evolution doesn’t happen through “opportunism, survival instinct and necessity.” I guess it happens by the pool, sipping a pina colada.

    “Isn’t meat just a catalyst for brain-size increase ?? isn’t the real growth and development to do with the social and communicating aspects that hunting necessitated ??”

    Yes, of course. We became all social, cooperative, developed languages and drew pictures of our furry pets on cave walls. Then we said, “wait (’cause we had language, see?), we can’t do this. Better go eat meat so we can grow big enough brains!”

    “if we completely stopped eating meat for a loooooong period, would our brains cease to grow (or start shrinking)”

    Our brains have already shrunk in size over the last 250,000 years (as has average stature). Thank agriculture.

    “so, richard, what are your thoughts on harley’s success ??”

    Well, since Harley and I are working out details for a live debate to take place in the next few weeks on Steven Pussack’s Raw Vegan Radio, I’ll keep the high road for now. So, about this picture of Harley…


    …I’ll just say that’s no “success” I’d ever want.

    “how about grok ??”

    He can come meet me in the gym any time. He’s training for endurance and has found that he can keep up the recovery pace better with lots of sugar & starch. It’s hardly a conventional, normal human existence and I assure you he’d be the first to admit that.

    Grok will also tell you in no uncertain terms that we evolved eating meat and that it’s what drove our brain size forward.

    • @richard…haha, yeah, blogs aren’t really set up for any kind of serious debate…not that i’m offering much of a serious debate 🙂

      “Yea, for like the last 15 million years is all.”

      i’ve already disregarded your evolutionary argument as invalid (especially given the context of this thread), being that it only shows what HAS happened….throwing big numbers into the pot doesn’t change anything

      “Yea, because as we all know, evolution doesn’t happen through “opportunism, survival instinct and necessity.”

      the fact that you lifted that quote from my sentence is evidence that i do understand that evolution happens, just i’m suggesting that what we get by on, scrape through on, make do might not be the best model for nutrition…my grandparents survived wars on ration books, but i wouldn’t look to their rations as a model for a healthy diet or to determine what i SHOULD be eating

      “Well, since Harley and I are working out details for a live debate to take place in the next few weeks on Steven Pussack’s Raw Vegan Radio, I’ll keep the high road for now”

      clearly, if you had some cohesive arguments, you’d be happy to share them…but i understand you wanting to hold onto your nutritional salvo to catch your opponent off-guard and come out the champion…

      for what it’s worth, re: the debate, i originally thought you likely to ‘win’ based on your ability to argue your case more coherently than harls….now i’m not so sure, especially given the vanity in your criticisms of another’s build (and your challenges to grok in the gym)…and arguments like ‘hardly conventional’ or ‘normal human existence’…normal ?? “Oh, yeah? What’s normal, then?” (jimmy, quadrophenia)…add to that your reliance on evolution as being a whole lot more than an account of what’s happened

      grok might agree with you that it isn’t “conventional” but so what ?? having experienced both sides of the coin and, excepting certain circumstances, he is choosing to leave the conventional to you

      anyways, i’m gonna leave this debate now…..i’m a bit of a ‘chancer’ in all of this..i have scant knowledge of evolution (as relevant as it, may or may not be)

      your admission that you’re keeping the real ‘meat’ of your argument a secret is, maybe a testament to the strength of your arguments that if you exposed them now that harley, aided by others, WOULD be able to counter them…sleight of hand and surprises, designed to unbalance your opponent seems to be the order of the day…how disappointing

      anyway, thanks for taking me seriously enough to debate with me…i will get around to looking through those links that you sent

      have fun 🙂

      • one last question :

        why would grok need to validate his current diet, competing with you ??

        he’s already experienced great gains in the exclusionary diet you follow, but now is experiencing greater gains with a fruit-based diet

      • I like the way you call paleo ‘exclusionary’ , isn’t LFRV just paleo sans meat and tubers? A little bit more exclusion going on there..

      • @sarah madden>>”I like the way you call paleo ‘exclusionary’ , isn’t LFRV just paleo sans meat and tubers? A little bit more exclusion going on there..

        absolutely…i didn’t use it in a derogatory sense…

        excluding bad foods is a major step towards health gain…paleo seems to be a huge step in this direction…but, according to the experience of someone like grok, who has experienced these gains, there is more to be gained from excluding the meat and the tubers

        it will be interesting to see how it pans out for him

        looking at richard’s blog, he still seems to be very early on his journey and, clearly, enjoying the ‘fruits’ of exclusion (bar 10%, of anything he cares for), apparently

        i wish him well…would be good to see how he does, in the long run

      • ELBO
        “one last question :

        why would grok need to validate his current diet, competing with you ??

        he’s already experienced great gains in the exclusionary diet you follow, but now is experiencing greater gains with a fruit-based diet”

        Elbo this is where we need to get more specific. If a paleo diet doesn’t work for you great, move on to what does.

        With regards to great gains, what you mean is a lower body mass and an increased ability to perform chronic extended endurance exercise. He’s doing some activity than can take immediate advantage of all that fructose. In one of his videos he stops halfway at what I think he said was the 40 mile mark on a daily ride, to eat more fruit.

        Well great in this instance a high fructose diet seems to be a good match for him. I’d wager though most LFRV aren’t endurance athletes. I imagine most people don’t want to look like a bodybuilder but I’d also guess by the same token most folks down want the hyper-emaciated look that seems to be the norm among the LFRV crowd. Again though if the LFRV crowd are happey with their diet, and healthy its no-ones business. The people around it seem to flagelate anyone who deviates from it or deems them a failure if it doesn’t work for them “you just aren’t doing it right”.

        Most paleo types aren’t likely to want to excommunicate me if I eat a carb or drink a coke, one because most aren’t that dogmatic to begin with. If I want a piece of pie I’ll eat a piece of pie etc.

        For me personally I’d never want to try LFRV, I enjoy meat love it. Love healthy fats. I don’t want to be rail thin, I can do that on a SAD. If anything I’m trying to push myself up to 190 pounds.

        For me though most LFRV types aren’t bad people Z(with the exception of some of the zeaolots) they are just a bit weird since it’s hard for me to wrap my head around not enjoying a good slice of tender seasoned beef 🙂

        Durian Rider in particular attracts more animosity than he doest positivity for his community. If he just left it at hey LFRV doest x,y,z for me if you arent interested in theses things it might work for you! I’d have a good bit of respect for him. He seems hellbent on assaulting less zealous members of his own community and if he had his way no one would be savoring the mana that is beef 🙂 For that and his stead fast committment to unitmitigated douchebaggery screw him and the fruit mobile he rolled in on!

      • @EdwinB

        i have very little interest in performance gains, because these occur in spite of diet…you’re never gonna outswim phelps, nor will you eat the same amount of crap

        the gains i was talking about, referring to grok, were those of health…

        ask him

        as for calling others weird because you don’t understand what they do ?? i needn’t bother answering that one

        you’re right about the zealotry doing no-one any favours but zealotry is for the zealots….are you asserting that all 811’ers act like this (in the same way as you believe them all to be rail thin) ?? or is it just the case with everything, that you’re drawn to those shouting the loudest and condemning a whole community based on the actions of those causing the controversy ??

        what need do you have to be 19 stone ?? what does a figure like that even mean ?? might i suggest you quit all this paleo nonsense and pick up some ‘weight gain 4000’ “BEEEFCAAAKE !!!!” 🙂


  14. Adam says:

    “I do not really know a great deal about non-human biology. I assume that since obligate carnivores do not have a requirement for dietary carbohydrates that most of their energy comes from beta-oxidation of fats and synthesis of ketones from proteins.”

    Looks like you need to brush up on human metabolism as well. There is also no dietary requirement for carbohydrate in humans. And proteins don’t synthesize ketone bodies, they synthesize glucose. It’s called gluconeogenesis.

    It’s the metabolism of fats that create ketones.

    The brian operates very well on ketones but still needs around 120g of glucose per day, and our red blood cells require a bit of glucose. And the liver produces glucose from protein (gluconeogenesis). It can convert fully 58% of a gram of protein you eat into glucose.

    However, the longer you go without carbs, the more efficient your brain gets at using ketones (made from fat metabolism) and can eventually get its glucose requirement down to about 40g per day. (Now you know who gets to speculate about just HOW and WHY we’d have evolved such an adaptation). Could it be that carboydrate wasn’t always around even to the tune of 120g per day on average? So, looks like over a LONG TIME, we came up with a way to kill 2 birds with one stone: meet brain and red blood cell glucose requirements AND spare as much protein as possible.

    If you want to read about the details, pages 279-282:

    Understanding the brain and its development: a chemical approach By Harun K. M. Yusuf


    • …And I might add that since both fatty acids and amino acids are an absolute requirement in humans while carbohydrate is not, doesn’t it strike as odd to claim that the “optimal” diet is one where only 20% of the essential stuff is consumed and 80% of the inessential?

      It boggles the mind.

      • Hey Richard

        Lol, thanks for pointing that out. You are correct of course. If there is one thing I do have a reasonable degree of confidence in, it is gluconeogenesis; As I have written a lot about the fasting metabolism on forums, and have undertaken a supervised water-only fast myself in the past, I am very familiar with the fact that it is fats that produce ketones, since this is the whole premise of fasting – and the ketogenic diets, which I have also ardently wrote against.

        I think what I do need to brush up on is focusing and re-reading my posts BEFORE I send them so I can edit. When I wrote the response I was actually thinking simultaneously about the human requirement for glucose (which as you say is 120g per day) and JS’s response, which revealed the fact that I hadn’t actually stopped to consider carnivore metabolism before. I was thinking about the human requirement for glucose and whether a carbohydrate free diet would actually be sustainable, and how much fat and protein would actually need to be consumed in order to avoid using up body fat for fuel.

        Thank you for the link and for the information about the additional efficiency of reducing glucose requirements to 40g. I was aware that fasting supervisors state that the longer you fast, the more efficient your body becomes at using ketones and so eventually less is needed as an act of continued protein sparing, which is why until starvation kicks in when fat reserves are depleted, muscle loss reduces. But I hadn’t been given an actual figure of what the body can reduce its glucose requirements to. How long does this process take in the fed state?

        As I said, I have no doubt that humans have the capacity to live on a low carbohydrate or even carbohydrate period of time and have no diet that there may have been periods in history where it was necessary for humans to do so. But what is in question here is what is most efficient for the body, and most consequence free.

        Glucose represents the cleanest burning fuel and the most efficiently metabolised. The body will use this in preference to using fat and protein. The question is not what is possible, but what is optimal for long term health and by extension perhaps, longevity, since it would make sense that the factors that would be most beneficial for one, would be most likely to result in the other.

        Using protein and fat as primary fuel sources represents something that the body evolved to do, in my opinion, out of necessity and desperation, when the bodys preferred fuel is not available.

        Although you pose a very interesting question, certainly not one that I have considered before, I believe it is highly possible that our capacity for using dietary protein and fat as exclusive sources of fuel came from our already evolved fasting metabolism. I consider the fasting response essential as an evolutionary development, since if there were times of insufficient food intake entirely, we would need a strategy to increase our chances of survival.

        Putting aside the controversy of whether it is a good idea to take advantage of this evolutionary development and apply it in a therapeutic context, the fasting response cleverly provided us with the capacity to continue to fuel our body, whilst being more economical and efficient.

        I believe eating carrion came from desperation (since it still naturally repulses most humans, whereas domesticated carnivores, regardless of attempts at enculturation, are not repulsed by carrion) since it does not naturally appeal to our senses and would not require the evolution of a wider spectrum of colour detection. Since I believe that, I think it seems more probable (to me, but I am aware that it could have come the other way around) that we would have evolved the fasting metabolism first and then began consuming animals.

        This makes more sense to me because in a tropical rainforest environment, where colourful, fragrant and tasty sweet fruits would be available to us most of the time, it is unlikely that if we started eating meat, we would have done so to the extent that we would have needed to develop things like ketone adaptation. Ketone adaptation would require periods of severe carbohydrate restriction. Since we have a naturally ‘sweet tooth’ this seems to reflect more a natural preference for carbohydrates when they are available. Hence it is unlikely that we would have willingly restricted our carbohydrate intake when available to the extent that we would have evolved such high levels of ketone adaptation.

        Although your point about the essentiality of fatty acids and amino acids over carbohydrates is an interesting and accurate point, I think the fact is that unless one was consuming pure cane sugar juice or honey in nature, it would be impossible to avoid amino acids and fatty acids. There exists no whole food protein-free, fat-free source of carbohydrate in nature.

        Our optimal evolutionary diet would be one that reflects what would be available most predominantly and consistently in our environment at the time. And so if we did evolve in a tropical rainforest environment, this would be carbohydrates from fruit, and not carrion, as the primary source of food.

        Our body can adapt to other conditions, very well aparently, since this increases the chances of survival, and evolution is afterall about increased adaptability and flexibility in response to our external environment. That the body can adapt to a carbohydrate free diet is a testament to its brilliance. But whether consuming a diet that contains low-to-no carbohydrates due to our bodys capacity to adapt to stressful situations, means that we should use this as a model for an apparently optimal diet is another thing entirely.

        Although you might think that my logic boggles your mind, I conversely find it illogical to consider why the body would have a preference for carbohydrate metabolism when there is an option available, and why it would be more energy expensive to use fat metabolism and even more expensive to use protein metabolism, if these components represented the most important ‘optimal’ part of the diet.

        Similarly, if we evolved to consume most optimally a high protein diet, why would our body be so inefficient at dealing with it? For example, other animals that tend to consume high meat or all meat diets, have evolved to break down uric acid to allantoin. Yet humans have not. This leads to the possibility of build up and associated problems with that. Surely if we had evolved to consume a predominantly animal based diet, and this is the proposed reason for our smaller digestive systems compared with other primates, it would have made sense that we would also have evolved the capacity to break down uric acid to allantoin?

        Also, why would we have evolved to have such small obligatory nitrogen requirements, if protein was such an important nutrient that we needed it to have a high presence in our diet.
        Surely, a preference for carbohydrate metabolism as the most efficient source of fuel, and a protein sparing quality with high carbohydrate intakes to the extent that our obligatory requirements for protein can be significantly reduced, along with our sweet tooth and wide range of sensitivity to colours, smells and tastes in carbohydrate rich sources such as fruits, is an indication that we evolved on a diet that predominated in such properties?

        Surely a secondary and tertiary preference for using fats and proteins, respectively as the source of fuel, and our inefficiency at dealing with high protein foods, represents an adaptation to (ideally) temporary stressful circumstances, rather than a long term strategy for the ideal diet?

        Take care

        Adam x

  15. Oleda Baker is 75 in this video: [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vN8_N0bppQ&w=480&h=390%5D

    She doesn’t eat a paleo diet, or a raw food diet. Just a normal diet of eating what she likes but keeping her calorie intake under control. She does make a yogurt smoothie each day, and takes a few pills/supplements from her website Oleda.com.

    Most people who live to be 100+ don’t eat a specific diet. Why restrict yourself to just fruit/veggies or meats? The world is full of abundance. Eat what you want.

    • “Most people who live to be 100+ don’t eat a specific diet. Why restrict yourself to just fruit/veggies or meats? The world is full of abundance. Eat what you want.”

      That’s my strategy: meat, fish, fowl, natural fats (animal, coconut, palm, olive), vegetables, fruits, nuts, herbs, spices = 90%. And 10% or less of whatever else I may want, like a burger, pizza, scotch now and then.

  16. Serge says:

    “I’m afraid that it most certainly is not settled science”

    It is if you discount the creationist fringe on the one side and vegans on the other. Two sides of the same coin.

    “Its a popular, no doubt about it, but there simply is nowhere near enough physical evidence to truly establish anything. The fossil record is amazingly small, and is still in question over its interpretation.”

    Yea, I neglected to consider all the farmer’s markets along the migration routes pictured here.


    • That indicates patterns over the last 50,000 years though. We know we have been cooking for 850,000 and using tools for longer, so I don’t think anyone is really expecting to justify raw veganism within the last 850k-1m years.

      So his map doesnt really say anything except that we werent frugivores in the last 50k years. No disputes there from any side.

      Take care

      Adam x

      • Starch; tubers. And meats. No question about it. As I’ve repeatedly said, I dont think that ANYONE can logically, rationally doubt that we have eaten a diet based around cooked starches and in many parts of the world, cooked meats, since we started leaving the rainforests and venturing out onto other terrain.

        What lfrv proponents suggest is that these are foods that we have consumed as a compromise, when the diet that we evolved to consume was no longer an option. Rather than these foods being things which drove our physiological evolution and thus being optimal for humans. They have no doubt been beneficial, nay essential, for our survival for long periods of time. That is one of the beauties of humans – we have an extraordinary degree of flexibility to adapt to different environmental stressors and still find a way to survive and make the best of the situation.

        The question is, since tropical rainforest environments do not preserve fossils well, and since most fossil evidence we have of humans is post-rainforest dwelling eras (eg. when we moved to savannahs), we do not know for certain how long humans have been in their human form and over what period of time humans evolved to be humans.

        Since we know that we evolved from primates and that our closest genetic cousins, the bonobos along with the other primates, were also frugivores (even though the quantity of insect and animal food consumption varies to different extents among the different species, they ALL consume a diet predominating in fruits and greens). And since the foods that would have been most appealing to the senses and readily available and easily digestible in their raw natural state would have been fruits and greens, it makes sense that these would have been the largest part of the human diet.

        Hence it is proposed that humans began focusing on sweeter fruits (ie. higher calorie fruits) and more tender greens, which required less effort to digest. And that these promoted human evolution, rather than animal foods.

        Take care

        Adam x

      • No, our closest cousins were almost Carnivores, Neanderthal man.

        You can’t just reason away what paleo anthropologists spend their whole life doing. None of them would agree with you. Doesn’t that concern you at least a little bit?

        The problem is that you haven’t analyzed the evidence. You have a given conclusion and you pick and choose the evidence that makes your theory sound plausible. People who do real science think your theory is completely untenable. You should really face this fact. I know it gives you anxiety and does not match your world view, but it is a fact that people who spend all of their time studying this stuff do not agree with you.

      • Jared

        Neanderthal man was our cousin, but he represents a genetic tree branch from which he went one way and we went another.
        According to the Fundamentals of Biochemistry supplement in 2002, by Donald and Judith Voet and Catherine Pratt, that Neandertal man did not contriute significant genetic information to modern humans during their coexistence.

        DNA samples were compared from both bone and mitochondrial DNA against 986 modern human lineages and 16 chimpanzee lineages. Then, based on their sequence differences, a phylogenetic tree was mapped, which showed clearly that whilst humans and chimpanzees shared their last common ancestor 4 million years ago, humans and neandertals shared their last common ancestor 600,000 years ago.

        The sequence comparisons clearly illustrated that they are separate species that did not contribute significantly to each others genetic history. These results were confirmed by a similar analysis of a second Neandertal sample from a geographically different location.

        No anthropologist or scientist would agree that humans ate a diet based around fruits? Are you sure about that?

        What about Alan Walker and his colleagues at Maryland University, who say that all dental fossil records indicate that early humans ate an entirely fruit based diet (not even based around nuts, seeds or green leaves).

        Or Jared Diamond, Physiologist and geography professor and researcher at UCLA, who says that evidence of early humans as hunters is a myth; that the earliest humans, pre-tools, ate a diet based around fruits, nuts, greens and tubers.

        I think you are making generalisations here.

        Take care

        Adam x

      • Are you serious? You just got done saying Bonobos were our closest cousins. This is not true. Neanderthals are. It’s like you forgot what I was replying to. Just like you were not saying that we are descendants of Bonobos. I was not saying that we are descendants of Neanderthals, just that they are a MUCH MUCH closer cousin than Bonobos.

        This means that their diet is much more relavant!

        All of that energy you just wasted talking about how far removed we are from Neanderthal was completely wasted, as I never made the claim that we are descendant.

        This is a play-by-play so that I can make sure we are 100% clear.

        You say bonobos eat a lot of fruit and they are our closest cousins, so that’s somehow relevant to the discussion.
        I say neanderthals are much closer cousins and they are almost carnivores.
        You say, as a complete non-sequiter that we are not descended from Neanderthals.
        I say, that’s why we both used the term ‘cousins.’ You are not descended from your cousins, merely related…

        About anthropologists and fruit-eating. Alan Walker does not believe early humans ate mostly fruit, unless the early humans you’re talking about are Australopithecus. He is in agreement with the scientific community about Homo Erectus being an omnivore. I don’t know where you got this information, or belief. Maybe you can provide a source?

        You bring up Jared Diamond? Is that all you have? I have read three of his books. I love the man. I think the thing that most vegans point to is his stories about how tribal societies he lived with spent a lot of time talking about hunting, but not doing a lot of hunting. Is that what you’re referring to? He does not agree with you about anything beyond that. You’re deluded to think that he does.

        The fact that so many large game animals are no extinct leads me to believe that drawing conclusions about past hunter gatherers by looking at modern hunter gatherers who live in the land that no one wants, with fewer large mammals than existed during our evolutionary past, is perhaps not the most academic of exercises. Although I would defer to Jared Diamond’s judgement on a lot of things.

        Beyond that, yes, to modern day anthropologists your ideas about our diet during our evolution would be labeled as crackpot and unsupported by evidence. This is not a generalization. There is absolutely no debate that paleolithic homo sapien was an omnivore. None.

      • Here adam:


        Someone has the entire book “The Third Chimpanzee” online. The first chapter will have probably the information you are completely misquoting. You can do a search for the word “hunter” and read through Jared Diamond’s arguments.

        His only disagreement with most other anthropologists is characterizing early homo sapien as a top-rate hunter. Though he characterizes times in our evolution when we certainly were.

        Regardless, if you can read that chapter and think that Jared Diamond still believes homo sapiens ate mostly “fruits and greens.” There’s probably nothing I can say to convince you.

    • “http://www.ucsf.edu/news/2010/05/5986/type-2-diabetes-cholesterol-heart-disease-kidney-risks-paleolithic-diet”

      AIMS:To find the relevance of Richard Nikoleys post

      The study only shows that Paleolithic eating is better than ADA diets and SAD diets. I don’t think many people here are recommending either of those.

      And like you say Rich, “still flawed with its “lean meat,” low-fat phobia drivel, as well as too much low-nutrient density food (fruits & veggies).” You can’t really prove your point about your diet by showing a study of a diet you disagree with.

      Conclusion:Richards study shows little relevance to either low fat veganism or his own diet.

      But don’t listen to me. I’m probably just B12 defficient. Oh no, I can feel my hands going numb as I wrte thsi poosst. Srrry fro te spelng. Time to eeat sum mud.

  17. serge says:

    “Based on comparative anatomy, physiology and psychology I will 100% disagree that humans should be classified as omnivores.”

    And voila, 100% moron. There, I said it.

    Dismissed. Just another creationist (that’s a metaphor).

  18. here’s an idea

    predictably, this has turned into the standard paleo vs 811 nonsense

    how about bringing it back to the context of the original post – that of nutritional analysis of bloodwork ??

    starting with julianne, maybe some of the paleo contributors would post their bloodwork results…..i’m sure comparing figures, will teach us all something

    so ???

    • Search ‘lipid panel’ on my blog. there are three posts.

      Here’s the latest:


      The ratios are off the scale excellent and have been for the three years i’ve been doing Paleo and taking tests

      Total/HDL = 1.96 (average is 4-6 and ideal is 2-3; still off the scale)
      HDL/LDL = 1.24 (average is .3-.4 and ideal is above .4; off the scale)
      TG/HDL = 0.36 (optimal is <2; off the scale)

      • good stuff….what about the rest ??

        and just to be clear, this aint about a competition…i have no interest in seeing your diet provide you with poor results or poor health…just interested in comparison for edumacative reasons

    • Sounds like it’s not the information you wanted to hear. You wanted to hear things that confirm your previously held beliefs. It’s sort of the un-scientific method, develop a thesis, and then discard all evidence that doesn’t support it.

      ELBO if you enjoy the 30Bananasaday protocol good for you. That enclave there is definitely cultlike though. Any conflicting information there is actively discouraged 🙂

      30bad is a LFRV (low-fat raw vegan) internet community which promotes a low-fat raw lifestyle free of any animal products. Our forum does not tolerate encouragement of anything contrary to LFRV. Nor do we allow endorsement of non-vegan items or practises which involve the imprisonment, exploitation, abuse or murder of sentient beings. We also require our members to post with proper netiquette. Therefore, please indicate your intention:

      What are you guys the Fruit Nazis ? 🙂 Durian Koresh ?

      • And that’s sounds a bit dickish. You’re probably a good guy and well meaning. If the vegan crew wasn’t so zealot centric I’d probably not think of them twice. That’s probably the big difference between Harley and his opposite in the Paleo Camp. I’d never try to restrict your ability to eat fruit, if you were a friend and looked sickly because of it I might mention it with concern. The opposite doesn’t hold true though, in you r camp I’m a bad evil murderer because I eat livestock and or wild animals. Many vegans would be more than happy to deprive me of that right.

      • @edwinb

        looks like you missed this line:

        i have no interest in seeing your diet provide you with poor results or poor health…just interested in comparison for edumacative reasons

        then, you said:

        It’s sort of the un-scientific method, develop a thesis, and then discard all evidence that doesn’t support it.

        look at you with your assumptions…i don’t fit in your box and neither do many others..open your eyes, man

        and then :

        ELBO if you enjoy the 30Bananasaday protocol good for you. That enclave there is definitely cultlike though. Any conflicting information there is actively discouraged

        i enjoy 30bad…i take exception to a lot of their protocol…i’ve been banned once, for speaking out and it’s probably not far off happening again….but, despite the things that i don’t like about it, there is a lot that i do..i’m not the only dissenter and there are a few other low-fat raw vegan communities that are a bit more open to discussing the angles (though you can’t view them freely on the internet)

        anyway, i have cause to re-assess some of the facets i don’t like about 30bad…having spent a couple of hours at richard’s place, i was shocked to see that many in your community put the worst of 30bad (on their worst day) to shame….the anti-vegan rhetoric, spewing of vitriol and plain old nastiness was a real eye-opener; and that’s before the comments section :o(

        seriously; who’da thunk that the great intellect that is richard nikoley (don’t know where i got THAT idea) was just a common brawler who’d read a lot….what a shame he can’t convey his message without resorting to sinking below the levels that he finds so detestable in certain of the vegan community….the ‘stick thin’ blog is quite the opus

        pity those who dare object, and end up ‘virtual’ carrion for these hungry savages :o)

        anyways, as i posted earlier, i try to keep an open mind….so i continued through the blog and the comments looking for something to learn…….oh boy, did i learn

        many in the paleo camp don’t seem to make the connection between buff vegans and buff meaters as good workout strategy….never seen a rail thin meat eater ??

        many in the paleo camp don’t seem to understand that a deficient diet is a deficient diet…..veganism isn’t deficient, but a deficient vegan can be…

        as for the sensationalist ‘vegan baby death’ propaganda ?? ah you got me, cuz only vegan babies have ever died through malnourishment ?!?!?!?!?!?!

        unlike you, however, i don’t make the mistake of generalising the paleo ‘crew’ based on the actions of an, angry, few….i take just the same exception to those who go over the top with the anti-human type of veganism…i happen to believe that people respond to different messages, differently and at different times

        but you mistake much of the motivation for the 30bad way….sure, some of the members are gonna want to deprive you of your meat for ethical reasons (that you clearly don’t share)..the other side of the coin is that there seems to be little proof of the need for meat, for health reasons…your ‘right’ to eat meat because it tantalizes your tastebuds, is something that could be up for debate, elsewhere but the orgasmic fervour wasn’t lost on me, when some chef spoke of hating vegans for depriving him of his gustatory pleasures

        despite what i have seen, it would be ludicrous to think all paleo-ists were the same, just as it is to posit that the vegan crew is “zealot centric”

        anyways, i reckon i’m done here…can’t really be bothered with this, anymore….the bias of he author is clear (if not here, then in the comments of richard’s blog) this is no open discussion

        one last thing: nothing sounds more “dickish” than a guy who uses the word “dickish”

        i bid you good day, sir


        seeing as this blog is about a nutritional analysis of someone’s diet, maybe we bring the focus back to nutritional analysis…i’ll say it again, that i have no interest or desire to see other’s health fail and if you are so adamant that vegans are on a pathway to ill health, why would you hold back information regarding bloodwork ??

        what richard has submitted is a good start, but doesn’t really expose the detail of the test that harley has had done…..can you be so confident in a lack of deficiency without these figures (as a starting point

  19. Thanks for all the debate. I didn’t really expect the post to generate so much interest. From my perspective a few points:
    This post came about primarily because my passion is nutrition. Also I have always been interested in making some difference in people’s lives, and nutrition is currently my venue for that. My greatest natural talent is actually not science – it is fine art. I was also a pretty good furniture designer. (saying that I still managed A’s in Nutritional Science at Uni) But being an artist and designer is not where my heart lies.
    This post began because I watched a video clip of Harley displaying his blood results, which were at odds to what I would have expected. He was also not suffering the health issues or poor blood results of others who were eating a raw vegan diet, and who have consequently needed to add in animal proteins in order to regain their health and improve their blood tests – for example Kevin Gianni from Renegade health: http://renegadehealth.com/blog/2011/02/25/what-diet-do-you-eat-kevin/

    As I said in the article – I was intrigued as to why Harley did not appear to suffer any obvious health issues, and his blood results shown had no deficiencies. Which is why I took one day’s food for an analysis (not the best way to analyse either, as it depends what is eaten on a given day). It was purely as an N=1 nutritional analysis exercise. All we can say from this is that Harley is doing okay on this programme, for a number of possible reasons, outlined in the article. This proves nothing about whether this is the ideal diet for humans in general, this would take a far larger selection of people and a number of studies, both longitudinal, comparison and crossover. (A number of pre 2001 studies are listed here – http://www.beyondveg.com/cat/links-out/raw-research.shtml, I’ve not yet searched for recent studies.)

    It doesn’t even prove that this is the best diet for Harley either.

    As a nutritionist, my primary objective when working with people is to find a way of eating for that person that works, one that gives them health, energy and good blood tests. Each person I see I track their progress, and expect to see an improvement in all health parameters with a change in diet.
    Yes I do have a bias, that is obvious from this blog, and this bias comes in part from my own personal experience, and now also from working with hundreds of clients. I have eaten a meatless diet in the past and it didn’t work for me. My health is robust on my current diet. And like Harley I have experienced remission from a number of health issues. No-one is without bias, and I have never claimed to be without it.

    Personally I am not convinced that an animal food free diet is best from a health, evolution, biological or other perspective. However in saying that I respect that many people for ethical reasons, (including a number of clients) do not wish to eat animal foods. And I also understand how passionately many feel that this is a way of living that all humans should embrace.

    So for me personally the question is “what works?” And the answer is likely to change because of nutritional research, anecdotal evidence, and learning from others as well as my own experience.

    This is why when people like Grok tell me they shifted from a high meat paleo diet onto a meat free high fruit one and got results, my first response is “Why did this work?” and, I’m also interested in his ongoing experience. I.e. long term results.

    When looking at what works – I also look at what different dietary strategies have in common. And of course raw vegan and paleo diets have a lack of grains, legumes and often dairy in common. Given these foods are in the top 8 food allergens, and at least 1 in 10 people have a problem with gluten, it is not at all surprising that when we change our diets and cut them out they experience massive health improvements. Both diets also remove chemically refined vegetable oils high in omega 6, and most other processed foods. When people experience significant improvements in health they consequently become wedded to the eating plan that made this significant impact. This again does not make that plan perfect for us, we need to look at what about this plan made it work, i.e. distinguish if possible those things that gave us success. This is ongoing in my experience. Personally I don’t think I’ve got my plan perfect for me either. I’ll keep experimenting, hopefully with a reasonably open mind!

    • i’m really quite surprised by this post, julianne; you being a nutritionist, and all

      you say that your “passion is nutrition”….i’m not sure i’m seeing it….i would much rather see your art, quite frankly 🙂

      even though you seem to acknowledge “Harley is doing okay on this programme” (only ok??), you seem pretty uninterested by the implications

      you said : “This proves nothing about whether this is the ideal diet for humans in general”

      i say “so what ??” evidently, the comments on this blog (once again) demonstrate that trying to determine the ‘ideal’ diet is just a waste of time…the best we can hope for is stalemate….and, you have already stated your ‘belief/bias’ that there is no ‘one diet to rule them all’

      so let’s concentrate on the options…harley’s blood tests would seem to indicate that it is possible to be THAT healthy (while avoiding all the commonly cited traps e.g rotting teeth etc) while eating THAT much fruit

      this seems to fly in the face of what most nutritionists believe…but you don’t seem excited by this….it seems your bias is serving to constrain you….

      you say you tried a ‘meatless’ diet and it didn’t work….but, while the common factor of a vegan diet might be the removal of animal products, you will be quite aware that that is where the commonalities cease…..clearly, harley’s diet is not just a case of not eating animals but of the addition of a huge quantity of foods bursting with nutrition….

      i’m sure you’ll agree that any diet can be a deficient diet…it isn’t just vegan diets that are susceptible (even if there are a few more factors to keep in check)

      you seem to be saying that you have vegan clients on your books….how does that work out ?? do hey know that you believe their choice to be, ultimately, doomed ?? 🙁

      then, you said : “Personally I am not convinced that an animal food free diet is best from a health, evolution, biological or other perspective”

      again, i think it really doesn’t matter on the evolutionary front as we seem to still have what we need to be frugivorous….but health and biology ?? remember those clients that you are guiding away from health….

      harley, at least, seems to be some kinda ‘reasonable doubt’ for you and that’s a seed that may grow, as you do seem to be interested in observing such an anomaly…..

      also, there is your interest in grok…this is, probably, even more important in this context as he is someone who experienced the health benefits of the exclusion of grains etc…he has experienced the health gains that the paleo community has….many paleo-ists, i’m sure, would think that their greatly improved health is a sign that the paleo diet is our, intended, diet…but those health goals would seem to disappear when you tell ’em they might have to forego their steaks…then we get all the ‘from my cold, dead hands’ rhetoric….

      but grok seems to be pursuing health…..ditching meat (except for if he ever feels like it), has brought even greater health benefits and bonuses….certainly, the benefits that grok has experienced with his joints e.g knees might point to the idea of deposits from the acidity of meats etc

      so, what is it that harley and grok have in common ??….maybe start with the biggest factor – the lack of meat, then work out from there

      if the paleo community is really just using the evolution as justification for not being deprived of their tasty treats, then at lest own up to it…if not, then let’s start to understand the differences in nutritive qualities between paleo (with meat) and without…..

      let’s start by dismissing the physique bullshit….the second picture you posted would seem to indicate an ability to make gains, despite not eating meat…i would bet a ton of money that i don’t have, that if harley were to have spent a year training with richard blackman aka ‘fruitarian one’ (before he disappeared up his own fundament) that harley would have made huge gains…..despite the anti-vegan propaganda, not all vegans are into ‘pow chic’…by the same token, there are many meat eaters that are ‘stick’ thin and weedy…so let’s dismiss the idea that hamburgers make muscles, because they don’t – working out, does….hmmm, a rap perhaps “meat don’t build muscles, workouts do”

      then, there’s the argument that a vegan ‘needs’ to supplement b12

      clearly, the way our world is and how we can easily corrupt our systems is causing b12 issues for many people…it can’t be just veganism that is responsible for the huge availability of b12 supplementation, as vegans don’t account for such a significant percentage of the world

      a frugivore, living in an untainted world, foraging for all his food would come into contact with all manner of b12, including (yes, richard) faeces – the ‘plat de jour’ of paleo man 🙂

      so, b12 supplementation might be necessary for some…call it unnatural, if you like but i’d bet that no one here lives like a natural paleo person, even if they believe they eat like one

      ‘natural’ is a strange word, and a virtually impossible concept to live by, in this world….if anyone is doing it, we don’t really get to know about it, as they would have to have completely disappeared ‘off the grid’ …so, supplementation of b12 might not be natural but it does offer a choice to people – that of being able to live a meatless life for ethics, or health…and f you still take issue with the ‘health’ factor, then time to supply the proof

      i’m glad you are looking to keeping an open mind, julianne…who knows where this will end up..certainly, ‘diversions’ such as the upcoming nikoley/johnstone clash are gonna be a hopeless waste of time…sigh…..

      so, do you have any recent blood tests to offer up, julianne ??

      • When vegan clients come with health problems, and need advice on diet, I try to resolve the health issues, and no I don’t tell them they should start eating meat.

        As for my blood tests, they are all completely normal and healthy, although with Hashimotos I have abnormal thyroid tests, thankfully improving, with diet tweeking rather than medication. Perhaps I’ll do a post on that some time.
        I’m not going to turn this into a debate over who’s blood tests are best. Harley and I are hardly matched, so comparisons are nuts.
        Match me with a 51 year old, peri-menopausal, hashimotos suffering, non athletic woman (who does 2- 3 hours high intensity exercise week).

      • Who wants to eat tonnes of fruit and veg all day to meet all nutritional needs when I can eat less when I include animal products and still meet nutritional needs. Don’t have to time to be eating and exercising all day – have a job and family to take care of.

      • sue said

        “Who wants to eat tonnes of fruit and veg all day to meet all nutritional needs when I can eat less when I include animal products and still meet nutritional needs.”

        you might not want to eat fruit and veg, but can you not understand that some people might not want to eat animals ??

        these nutritional results show that doing so doesn’t necessarily need to mean deficiency

        as for eating all day…bet you your prep, cooking, eating and cleanup time are greater than an 811’er

        as for this sentence : “I can eat less when I include animal products and still meet nutritional needs” ..am i to take from this that you’ve had bloodwork done ??…you KNOW you have no deficiencies ??

        you might have no interest in it but, if it can be demonstrated that a frugivore diet can lead to complete nutritive health, you aint gonna deny others that choice, right ??

      • Nora Gedgaudas also sees a lot of vegans with health issues. Ceasation of menstruation an issue but read a post where they are questioning if it is normal to have a menstrual flow every month.

      • “When vegan clients come with health problems, and need advice on diet, I try to resolve the health issues, and no I don’t tell them they should start eating meat.”

        but you’ve told us that you believe a meatless diet to not lead to health….you have no faith in what they are trying to achieve, ethically…you don’t believe in success in what they are trying to achieve and you have also failed at trying to achieve it, yourself

        no offense, but why wouldn’t you refer them to someone who had a better track record with the vegan diet or, at least, a basic belief in it’s possibility??

        as for a competition for blood results, that needn’t happen…but, whatever

      • “I don’t tell them they should start eating meat.”

        and you also have to keep quiet about the aspect that you DO believe will lead to their health

      • sue said

        “Nora Gedgaudas also sees a lot of vegans with health issues. ”

        a lot of vegans may have health issues…so do a lot of meaters

        any diet that one eats has the potential for deficiency…

      • “Vegan client’s know I am not a vegan. They know where I come from. They see me none the less.”

        obviously…i’d say it was your responsibility to decline

        given that your position remains quite clear throughout this blog, i’d imagine you weren’t seeing success with these clients

        • My stance on meat has nothing to do with my success or not with people who wish to avoid it. One’s health is not solely about whether one eats meat or not, there are a lot of other improvements people can make to their diets that make a difference, and these have nothing to do with meat.

      • Elbo, she probably could get them to a healthier state faster with animal based products. There’s absolutely no point in recommending them if they want incorporating them. That absolutely doesn’t preclude her being able to improve their nutrition with supplements or tweaking the things or amount of things they will eat.

        Your brain is running low on glucose – retreat to the banana cave and scarf down 10kgs of fruit for a recharge 🙂

      • “My stance on meat has nothing to do with my success or not with people who wish to avoid it. One’s health is not solely about whether one eats meat or not, there are a lot of other improvements people can make to their diets that make a difference, and these have nothing to do with meat.”

        of course, health is about many things, but this statement “Personally I am not convinced that an animal food free diet is best from a health, evolution, biological or other perspective.” shows that whatever other changes you help your clients to make, you still don’t seem to think it’s gonna work out from all perspectives, with the “or other” thrown in to damn any chance

        to quote doug graham, if i may “your health is only as good as its weakest link” so, while i believe you to be treating your clients from a wholistic perspective, you would have to admit that diet is quite a weak link to have

      • @eddieb

        “Elbo, she probably could get them to a healthier state faster with animal based products”

        i’d ask you to justify such absurd, baseless speculation, but your “probably” removes any responsibility

        then :

        “That absolutely doesn’t preclude her being able to improve their nutrition with supplements or tweaking the things or amount of things they will eat.”

        indeed…people do need to supplement….some vegans do….nothing wrong with supplementation for those who don’t want to eat animals….but b12b is a no-brainer…and given the distinct lack of bloodwork on display, here, the paleo crew certainly have some faith 🙂

        still, the supplementation wont make up for julianne’s beliefs….

        though i believe her to have the best intentions, and to do as best as she can i would still recommend that her core lack of faith in veganism isn’t a good foundation for treating vegans

        although, with harley’s results burned so fresh in her mind, maybe things will change

        • El-bo,
          Just because I have a view point does not mean clients aren’t helped.
          FYI there is an awesome Vegan doctor here in my city, I always give clients her contact (http://leilamasson.com/index.html) , plus go out of my way to find quality vegan supplements etc.

          I really do get your point!
          I feel like this is going round in circles.

      • Ah yes, the unreferenced personal record, the most scientific and undisputable method of proving a diet’s efficacy.

  20. I think you did a great job with this post.
    Durian’s dietary lifestyle seems to be working for him but that doesn’t mean its going to translate to everyone. Not everyone wants to eat tonnes of fruit daily or do tonnes of exercise. A dietary approach needs to suit a person’s lifestyle and preferences. Whatever one chooses it has to ensure compliance. Even if veganism or eating just fruit may be the most healthiest diet on the planet (which I don’t believe) its not going to make a difference in someone’s life if they cannot comply with it a good deal of the time.

  21. Ancient man lived in tribes of various sizes. Put a small group of Fruitarians in a wild setting, with proper growing seasons (no plantations or farms etc) and rivalry from other species for food sources, would it be possible to provide such a high caloric intake for a sustained period of time? Let alone a single day?

  22. Humming birds eat many times their body weight in insects–the sugar water/nectar is not enough. Chickens will eat grubs, termites, insects, reptiles, rodents etc.–and chicken parts! Herbivores incidentally eat insects while grazing, as do gorillas. It has been observed that gorillas and chimpanzees will occasionally kill small animals, including monkeys. Orangutans eat ants, bees, and wasp galls. Monkeys, while eating primarily fruits and leaves eat grubs, insects, eggs, reptiles.

    None of our monkey and primate ancestors were 100% fruitarian, not now not then.

    Our direct ancestors chose to increase the meat eating, which is how we became the big brained primates that we are. Anthropologists record world wide that in cultures that had to depend on agriculture, their brain size decreased from hunter-gatherer norms.

    Not going there.

  23. One thing that caught my eye, in fact I stopped reading and grabbed my lab results, was his triglyceride levels. I had labs run in 2007 when I was in the midst of being conventionally healthy (low fat, high whole grains) and again this past January (about 1.5 years into a Primal/Paleo diet and fitness regime). Interestingly, my trigs were 0.65 mmol/L back when I was a “grainy” and now since going Primal they are 0.34 mmol/L against his 0.6 mmol/L Raw Vegan diet numbers. Hmmm, better tasting more satisfying food, less chronic cardio and better numbers? Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I am 39 yo to his 33 yo!

      • There are other results of CBC testing, but no more of the more detailed results that one may be interested in. My primary interest was to compare pre (low fat, high whole grain, frankenoil etc.) and post Primal/Paleo.

      • “My primary interest was to compare pre (low fat, high whole grain, frankenoil etc.) and post Primal/Paleo.”

        but you only compare a few variables….

        do you just have faith that you aren’t deficient in other areas, or are you planning to find out at some point ??

      • Which areas are you thinking of for deficiencies? Given the variety in my diet (sans grains), I have a hard time believing that I am missing much, except for vitamin D which I supplement because I am in a Northerly latitude.

      • i’m not really sure, and it would be pointless to guess

        i’m not even saying you would be deficient, but a couple of posters have asserted that they could, significantly, cut the calories because meat would make up the balance of nutrition…without any supporting evidence, i wonder how one can be so sure that all bases are covered

        if you’re happy as you are, then that’s fine…maybe it’s just because everyone assumes veganism to lead to deficiencies, that vegans are more concerned to check..either way, it seems to be a positive ‘compromise’…

      • I could and maybe should check things out more than I have. But the way I look at it is that in addition to eliminating grains/legumes/sugar and most dairy from my diet, I now also eat many more fruits and vegetables of they are of a much wider variety now than ever before. Together with the items I have eliminated and the fact that I consume very little processed food, try to eat only pastured eggs and beef, I am taking an educated guess that my diet is nutritious. Maybe I will get some more testing done, but I have no pre-Primal baseline for these numbers as I do for the basic blood work I started this comment thread with.

  24. I have seen this guy walked right past him about 4 yrs ago when he visited my city Adelaide in Australia, I noticed who he was as I bumped into his youtube clips many years ago. He has no build looks like a skinny vegan. By chance today i bumped into a video of his girlfriend showing what she eats in a day, if you look at the video here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfHFyKAX2lM&tracker=False&NR=1 they have a bbq and the house looks similar to what you see in Durianrider’s youtube clips. If they claim to be vegan why would they have a bbq for?

    • yeah, that’s a really nice video of freelee…..does she look overly skinny to you ??

      as for the barbecue ?? they house-sit….if it’s the video i’m thinking of, she even mentions it

      anyways, just cuz a barbecue is there, doesn’t mean they use it

      • I agree with you as it is their does not mean it is used. Her reaction to it being their on the video made me curious a little curious.

    • Come out training Sot and if you can beat me up a hill or around the track 5000$AUS to you.

      What will you give me if I beat you at bench press based on lb for lb? Will you give me 5000$?

      Dont tell me your just another faceless avitar in poor health and fitness that is an expert eh? 😉

      veganbobster@gmail.com Im approachable. I train everyday. Lets see what your made of. Man or meek? 😉

      • Hello Harley. I live in Corvallis, Oregon, USA and I do not exercise at all but I can outbench you pound for pound if your numbers are still like these, and I’ve never taken steroids in my whole life, unlike you. I will give you a free nutpunch (that is, to your groin) if you can beat me. Here are my stats:

        Body weight: ~95 kg
        Bench press: 125 kg

        My diet is vegan if not for the fact that I eat sardines and chicken. What do you think? Want to see if an unlifting meat eater can beat you pound for pound?

  25. “One can only imagine where he might be now if he had trialed a paleo diet which most likely have cured his ills.”

    Anyone who DOESN’T see that this is a propaganda piece is not looking.

    Why do you spend so much time writing about this guy and his diet and blood work? What is your message that you’re trying to convey?

    “I wonder how much time Harley does spend on the toilet?”

    Dear God. Do you really?

    “If his vegan diet is truly superior in terms of cycling performance, then I would want to see some results from the likes of criteriums, hard-fought tours, short sprint MTB events, etc. He should be superior across the full spectrum of events.”

    His ability to be “superior across the full spectrum of events” would cause you to reach a conclusion on eating a vegan diet? Really?

    “…. caloric absorption from a completely raw food vegan diet may be as low as 46%.”

    And my aunt may be the next Dalai Lama but we’ll just have to see how it all plays out.

    • “One can only imagine where he might be now if he had trialed a paleo diet which most likely have cured his ills.”

      The same issues Harley has have been dealt to by a paleo diet that includes meat. I’m curious – how might Harley have responded?
      Just check the results reported on this blog.
      As far as athletic performance, there are numerous examples where meat or other animal foods have been added to a vegan diet and both performance and health have improved. I truly wonder how Harley would respond. Despite you seeing propaganda, none intended, I am very open about where I stand with my views. Here is a quote from a client who switched from a quality vegetarian diet to paleo with meat as an experiment:
      “From vegetarian to paleo in 6 weeks… This was a trial for me (not as in hard but as in a test period). I wanted to see if changing my diet would make a difference in my training. Oh. My. God. There is no going back. There is no comparison. I’m convinced and converted.”

      “I wonder how much time Harley does spend on the toilet?”
      Again, truly curious.
      Thankfully Harley answered this question for me in a recent blog post: (http://durianrider.org/)
      “I must crap all day long right? About twice a day on average. Nice and easy. No wrenched up face on the toilet cos my diet is actually HIGH in soluble fiber. No more chrons disease for this fruit bat! Hey you want a photo of one of my famous 2 foot craps? Well let me think about it. ;)”

  26. Wow, I’ve learn so much from this blog and thread of comments. This might send this off on a whole new tangent, but here I go. I’ve been trying to encourage some of the ladies over on the MDA forum to measure and weigh their food. Some of them are stalling or failing to achieve their body composition goals. Many of them are not getting enough protein, 1 gram per pound of body weight, so I think they need to measure and track their inputs. I don’t think the unweighted/unmeasured approach works for everyone. So, what does all that have to do with this blog? I like where el-bo is going with his thought, show me your inputs and your outputs. It would be interesting to have a group of meatless paleos and another group of meat paleos track their food for a month and then run blood panels. Let’s see if there are deficiencies in the inputs and any downfalls in the results.

  27. el-bo said:
    “i’m not even saying you would be deficient, but a couple of posters have asserted that they could, significantly, cut the calories because meat would make up the balance of nutrition…without any supporting evidence, i wonder how one can be so sure that all bases are covered”
    You can’t be sure. If you start getting symptoms it may lead you to believe you have certain deficiencies. You try and cover your bases that’s all you can do. Like I said previously if you are not digesting and absorbing adequately it doesn’t matter what you eat. Main thing is to remove the processed crap from your diet.
    I would rather take my chances and eat meat, fruit, veg, nuts and seeds RATHER than just eat a mountain of fruit. It suits me better and would probably suit most.

    • nope, WE can’t be sure

      but if we are talking about the examples given for this blog topic, you can get a rough idea of harley’s input and the, commensurate, blood results….

      in this case, symptoms don’t appear to be causing any issues that are detected by his bloodwork or affecting him physically

      “I would rather take my chances and eat meat, fruit, veg, nuts and seeds RATHER than just eat a mountain of fruit. It suits me better and would probably suit most.”

      even if it meant you missing out on , ‘POSSIBLE’, improvements in health (see grok)..??

      are your goals, health, convenience or is it just a love of the barbecue ?? i ask because, without having given it a try, you have already decided it wouldn’t “suit” you

      • I’m not open to trying it for a number of reasons.
        Anyway, I’m curious to know how Durian has bulked up just recently like other posters commented. We’re used to seeing him in videos looking like the first pic.

  28. Some of the kids I coach have greater amounts of lean muscle mass than this fella.
    When the aliens finally come they’ll kill all the weak ones first…

    • I have had this photo posted at the beginning of the blog post for some days now, Harley sent it to me.

      As for the rest of us being ‘fat asses’, that is rather a crass statement, with no proof whatsoever. Speaking for myself – this certainly does not apply. You seem to make a habit of trying to insult people to make a point. As you are probably young (I presume you are the same Jason with a mother of 40) I hope you grow out of this habit and come back with some science and evidence to make your points.

      • @Julianne, to be honest, it’s a waste of energy trying to maintain a level-headed debate with these trolls (or troll, I strongly suspect, with many different names ;)…notice how much ego is attached to their comments? Any confident individual wouldn’t have to resort to bragging and “are you man enough” drivel to get his/her point across. I read a number of artcles suggesting that Harley is notorious for trolling under multiple users to support his own insecure claims. It’s pathetic.
        And clearly, he looks sickly. Not so much because of his low body weight but because of his face. No 30-something man should look that old in the face. His girlfriend doesn’t look any healthier. And he also has quite the little mean streak on him. Vile, inflammatory garbage spews out of his mouth any time someone points him to evidence that suggests that other diets are healthy.
        I have absolutely nothing against anyone who wishes to eat a vegan diet, or a raw vegan diet, or whatever it is that floats their boat. But this guy doesn’t just eat a certain way. He pushes his agenda like a cultist food nazi and smugly shits on any form of constructive criticism.
        Anyway, all those things aside, I appreciate your article and I like the way you broke things down in a way that made sense while remaining relatively objective. I don’t think it always comes down to science and numbers, and that there’s a lot we don’t know. I also wish the prmal/paleo diet had a dfferent name, since it has little relevance to our earliest ancestors. It also seems to gained a reputation for beng a diet that advocates mass meat consumption and calorie restrictions, which is not the case for many.

        • I’ve looked at his blog a couple of times and have followed the comments with interest. And of course everybody seems to have their own bias. Look I think any extreme dietary behaviour of this sort is both irresponsible and to be frank borders on some sort of OCD. The irresponsible part in so far that any number of people, as is evidenced by some responses, will hop on this latest diet fad without any professional advice of further reading. Ok, so he says it works for him, cites his cycling and running prowess and puts out photos of a guy who frankly looks as though he needs a good feed. But it’s sad that people can’t work out things for themselves. Gees there’s enough research out there done by professionals which will which will set you on the right path.

          No, I’m not a professional, but then again I don’t think Durianrider nor his partner are either, consequently I think their advice should be taken with a grain of salt; well banana at least. I eat lots of vegetables, several pieces of fruit a day and maybe three servings of meat(mainly chicken or fish) a week, and a beer once in a blue moon, an occasional piece of chocolate and no cake or biscuits. I ride 5 -6 days per week for an hour or or so when I’m back home in Belgium and do bodyweight training three days per week here as I have limited access to weights.

          Extreme is relative and most of the guys I know might say I’m a bit OCD myself. But unlike a lot of people I try to think for myself when it comes to my body and what I put into it. I’m 70 and intend to be around for my 80th and beyond. And without swallowing 30 bloody bananas a day! Think for yourself; it might be a new experience.

  29. There’s many other people on a raw fruit based diet who have great builds. Not everyone is skinny.

    Emery: http://www.30bananasaday.com/forum/topics/muscle-gain-in-2mo-lfrv?xg_source=activity

    Jim Morris (he’s in his 70s): http://gymmorris.com/ , and has been eating as a vegan since he was 65. He’s maintained his build…
    [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REeAzOg0uyc&w=480&h=390%5D

    • I don’t think this is the majority – most are stick thin.
      Jim Morris has been body-building forever. The guy is doing well as vegan because of that.

  30. Yet the majority of Paleo diet & cooked meat eaters (even grass-fed meat eaters) I’ve seen are usually overweight or look sickly (at least to me). Yes there are some who lift weights and exercise who look great, but that is the result of their exercise (not what they eat!) . There are sick, thin, fat, and healthy people on all kinds of diets. You just have to find what works for you.

    I think it all comes down to what you’re comfortable eating. I’m not comfortable killing animals as my food source. I think everybody should respect each others food choice and go about their merry way. I don’t think DurianRider is set out to offend anyone, he is just vocal about his experience on a low raw food diet, and is tired of the snake oil salesmen pushing superfoods and other supplement.

  31. A great analysis Julianne!

    I too wonder if Durians Crohn’s was done with getting most offensive things out of his diet.

    I too, have Crohn’s and perhaps I should say “had”, since I had an incredibly unpredictable symptoms until I got some Omega 3 and 4000+ IU of Vitamin D for several months.

    This and semi-paleo eating totally did it for me. No medications for 2 years now. It seems that sleep deprivation affects my (minor) symptoms now more than about any specific food.

    Actually, I even could stop Vit D and symptoms did not come back. Do youthink Julianne it might have something to do with intestinal bacteria? The only painful period since “the cure” was a month or so after colonoscopy about ½ year ago.

  32. People can question harley but never, ever, question freelee — she’s a fruitionist! LMAO! I hope and pray that the intellectually challenged folks on 30bad don’t give their hard earned money to someone with no education in nutrition. Hell, I don’t think either one of them (harley or freelee) have any education what-so-ever.

    Maybe it’s just me but I tend to not want to put my health in the hands of two uneducated fruit eaters.

  33. Google Storm Talifero. He’s been raw vegan for several decades and is currently 61 and is muscle bound even at his age. He and his wife Gingee are raising a slew of totally raw kids. They have several websites.

    • You mean the couple that has 0 free content and makes money selling raw vegan ebooks?

      I call bullshit… Of course he SAYS he has been raw vegan for decades. How else is he going to sell that garbage?

      • I don’t know much about them Jared. I see muscular black man in photos and that’s all I’m really concerned with to be honest, LOL. He looks DAYUM good for 61. Raw vegan chocolate? Now that’s sumthin’ to nibble on!

  34. Bernando Lapallo is someone who has lived on a diet of fruit, vegetables, a little fish, and lamb once a year. He is 109 years , 333 days old! Bernardo LaPallo attributes his health and longevity to a pescetarian and raw food diet and various other natural and alternative health habits. He barely has any wrinkles and doesn’t have any health issues. This guy is really healthy! I like it when he says, “Keep your colon clean!” That has a lot of truth to it. Animal products do become a problem when people cram there system with it everyday. That is not necessary and is pretty disgusting and sad especially when in most parts of the world we have access to plant foods. Of course people will reap what they sow. Everyone is free to eat whatever they want, but there is always consequences. A lot of this is common sense. I for one could not find it in myself to kill an animal everyday and eat it. I would kill an animal if I had to survive, but I live in a society and environment where I can thrive! God didn’t give us a smorgasbord to just eat as many animals as we want by the way. God created us in a garden. Our original diet should still bear a lot of weight with us even today, but so many people don’t believe in God so of course they don’t even think about that fact. I am a Christian. Hopefully this post will perhaps benefit those who are confused on all of this. Just remember that some of the oldest people who have ever lived ate a predominately plant based diet. 🙂

    • I think a plant based diet is great, however, a purely plant diet does not seem to work. Only one supplemented with seafood or other animal food. I recently went to a talk given by the woman who was featured in the Sunday Magazine article that I was in (about a year ago). She was on a raw vegan diet, basically purely raw plant diet. (Sunday Star Times Article) She found she could not maintain it, and her health and energy levels deteriorated after a year or so. She has added back some cooked vegetables, plus egg yolks and raw cottage cheese. She regained the initial buzz, health and energy she experienced when she first started her raw vegan diet.

  35. That was a pretty interesting breakdown. I had read about this kind of stuff years ago when I was searching for cures to just about all the same problems this dude had. I tried it of course. I’ve tried everything. I was in the bathroom all the time. But I think I may have fructose malabsortion, or fruit just isn’t good for me. Anyway, I did the same thing that he did. I was super active and ate tons of calories from fruit. I would eat a little nuts occasionally. I had already been paleo for some time so it was important that I stuck with natural foods. Anyway, it didn’t do anything for me. I had energy and I was basically happy but my digestion was a mess and I wasn’t a great thinker. My skin looked horrible. You could say maybe that it didnt work because I have food sensitivities but if the diet is so right then shouldn’t it have cleared them up?

    Well, not for me. But that’s just it. That was me. This is him. Maybe he’s fine going to the bathroom 3 times a day. Maybe he’s fine with whatever trade off be has made. He’s doing what he wants and he’s fine. Who cares if he tells the world about it and they all follow him. If they feel like I did when I did it they’ll just quit. I know I don’t want people talking shit about my crazy diet. It works for me, for now, and that’s all that matters. And I’m damn happy about it so I blog about it.

    I’m on an iPhone at the park so sorry for typos.

    • Thanks Peggy, for the alternative. Just because this works for one person does not mean it is the answer for another, even with a similar health issue.
      And a good point – for all those who try this (vegan diet) – if it doesn’t work – don’t keep persevering – drop it – do something else.

  36. I came here for some info and all I’m seeing is “Harley Bashing”. I know a LOT of people who would like to be as fit as he is. Why is he thin? He’s an ATHLETE. Why don’t you go bash all the Jockeys? Do you know how demanding horse riding is, let alone, race riding? Do you know what Jockey’s eat? Some of them, next to nothing. One jockey ate only a single package of Ramen soup per day to maintain his racing weight, and you all want to bash Harley? I’m not a strict vegan, but I’m back into training. After trying all the stupid diets out there, I’m simply feeding my body properly in the way I choose (mostly vegetarian) and ailments I had are disappearing. Supplements do nothing for me. As for your B12 b.s….my grandmother, on a meat and potatoes diet and very strong and active STILL took B12 shots her whole life since the 1950’s. She ate meat, fish, dairy, shellfish, veggies, fruits…still B12 deficient AND MAY I ADD anemic and later died of cirrhosis of the liver even though she NEVER drank alcohol. So before bashing a healthy person, take that into consideration. I’m finding that people who bash Harley wouldn’t dare post a photo in a swimsuit. I do understand the Paleo diet, I also tried eating the Atkins way for a while…poor Dr. Atkins himself dropped dead overweight, so, sorry, I tend to follow people who do what I do and are successful. I’m a cyclist, I’m a realist. Instead of bashing I’d like to see some real hard-core info that I can use. Thanks.

    • Harley went out of his way to put down, bash and insult a number of paleo eaters. My was mild and tame in comparison.
      Re vitamin B12, yes there are people who eat meat who need to supplement because they do not absorb it. However it is still in their diet. On the other hand a vegan diet contains ZERO B12, without modern day supplements children and adults die (and have died). I suggest you do at least a little research into nutrition before making statements that I am saying is BS.
      Dr Atkins died of a head injury.
      I did a very comprehensive breakdown of Harley’s diet and a follow up post on the problems with Vegan diets and resources to keep yourself healthy if you choose to stay on a vegan diet. http://paleozonenutrition.wordpress.com/2011/03/26/why-i-dont-recommend-a-low-fat-raw-vegan-diet/

        • Are you yet another example of a vegan troll, who (hides his / her identity behind a sarcastic email address and) is deficient in brain cells due to lack of B12 and omega 3? – Because you sure come across as one. Sorry vegan trolls – but my patience with banal irrational and irritating questions and comments is wearing thin.

          Okay to answer your question – he was in his 70’s, slipped on an icy pavement and hit his head, giving himself a brain injury that he did not recover from.

  37. Someone actually posted “he could cut his calories by a third if he ate meat which is 100% digested”. Well I noticed after eating meat I still have to go to the bathroom, so incorrect there. The truth is a vegan diet is healthier for 100% of the population. It is not an opinion, but a fact that humans are herbivores. Heather Shinkmann , cardiologist and Ironman triathelete is right about that. Dr. Roberts the editor-in-chief of the American Journal of Cardiology says “humans get atherosclerosis,and that’s a disease only of herbivores, humans also must be herbivores.” Peace.

      • HAHA… these are random comments!! Your “health issues” are comments?? HAHA loook at the medical journals and actual studies. I will tell you what the heart disease rates are FACT that it kills billions of americans and when your vegan you eliminate heart disease which is also FACT. Am I taking crazy pills or just trying to communicate with a cavewoman.

        • Okay – so give me some links to clinical studies.

          Show me studies with evidence that a paleo diet kills people.

          Heart disease does in fact kill many. The standard American diet kills many, but as you know I don’t eat that way.

      • This isn’t threaded correctly, so close will have to be good enough. You’re too nice Julianne. Hopefully English is Valentine’s second (or third) language, but my guess is he’s 14. I’d be curious to find out where “billions of Americans” are living and dying. If it’s “fact”, I’m sure it’s something the Census Bureau and CDC would love to know about. Hell, it may even be a critical link in our failing economy. 😉

  38. wow your paleo comments are as enlightening as a cavemans, no wonder your all stumped on “fruit equals health” . Just stop all your comments and go back to your scratching your heads oyur not advanced enough to eat healthy. By the way it is a FACT tht humans have survived for millions of years on fruit. Hmmm…how do gorillas live??? and why are they 10times stronger than man??? They eat a fruit diet but not as much as Harley so they must be lacking in something??? OMG?!?! LOL I love messin with cavemen

    • It’s hard to say for sure anything about our evolutionary past. If you think nutritional scientists aren’t very thorough then you should look into how a lot of Anthropologists form their theories. Anthropology is just as much a young science.

      I would say a lot of our evolutionary history was spent eating a mostly plant based diet (roots, tubers)and in times we’re more meat than plant based sources were eaten (like in colder climates), it wasn’t eaten as much as it is by Paleo dieters today. If you don’t believe agriculture has been around all that long then ask yourself is it really realistic to assume we individually consumed as much meat as Paleo dieters do today?

      Look up The Hadza for an idea of how African Hunter gatherers likely lived in the past

      • There are no accounts of vegan hunter gatherers ever. There are some that have high carb high plant diets – that is true. BUT – all ancestral and hunter gatherer diets contain animal protein.

        Paleo diets are NOT meat diets. They are omnivorous diets. Personally – I eat a lot of plant food and a small portion of protein at my meals. There are many paleo eaters that eat more plant food than the average vegetarian.

        In my opinion there are some paleo peeps eat too much meat and too little plant food.

    • Please don’t tell me you’re a gymnast. My sister can bring herself to a complete headstand over the bar and hold it. She can do what you’re doing with one arm.

  39. Low Urea – Sign of decreased protein intake. It’s a low protein diet. Figure it out.

    B12 – Does it matter whether his diet is defficient in it or not? Are there any adverse side effects of taking supplements or proven disadvantages? Most peoples bodies have stores of B12 that last years without needing to be topped up. It gets recycled.

    Needs to exercise to burn off the sugar – He exercises because he likes to exercise. Perhaps if he forced himself to sit still all day then it might cause a problem but why would he do that?

    You can point and say omega 3 fatty acids from plant sources don’t convert so well but if you have no proof he, or any other vegan for that matter, has a defficiency then it’s just words without reason.

    High blood sugar is associated with diseases like you mentioned. Harley doesn’t have high blood sugar even though he consumes so much. He also consumes fruit sugar in it’s whole form, not refined. There’s a difference.

    If you compare the amount of supplements Harley takes to someone like Mark Sisson. Well… I find it amusing myself. Make of it what you will. Mark takes omega 3 supplements and Robb Wolf and Loren Cordain recommend them. Look it up if you don’t beleive me.

    I could just do the same thing with a paleo dieter. As in, guess that they’ll get defficient in something in the future even though they’ve been doing great for years.

    • Like I said the whole point of this post was to find out how such a diet could be consumed long term and if there were any deficiencies. Clearly Harley covers his bases in all but preformed vitamin A, B12 and long chain omega 3’s. He may efficiently convert short chain omega 3 into long chain and get adequate – he hasn’t yet tested his omega 3 levels. He is also able to convert beta carotene to Vit A retinol, some people – more often women don’t do this well. He does not get any B12 in his diet – clearly he would suffer severe health issues if he didn’t supplement, see http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/infocenter/vitamins/vitaminB12/

      I pointed out that he seems healthy right now, and has no effects from his high sugar diet. But – but will he always be? – time will tell. If he didn’t exercise as much – would he be able to eat such a high carb diet? And consume so many calories which are necessary to get sufficient nutrients?

      What will Harley’s health be like when he is older?

      As for Mark Sissons taking supplements – this has nothing to do with the topic. that as you say would be a separate analysis. And what of taking them if they enhance ones health – does it mean we are deficient by RDAs? No – it may just mean that one feels the RDA is insufficient for optimal health. And better health can be achieved by taking supplements, as well as having a diet that reaches or exceeds RDAs.

      • If a supplement makes up for one’s defficiency then they should take it indeed unless there are side effects.

        Well if you’re going to use people like Sisson as an example of how well someone can do on a Paleo diet then it’s relevant, but if you don’t do such a thing then I apologize.

        In response to the other reply. I’m not saying a bit of meat is going to kill you or that there has been an entirely vegan culture, but there have certainly been many with rather high plant intake and rather low meat intake. Again I’m not sure about what you eat exactly so I apologize if you’re not suggesting this but I don’t think there has ever existed a hunter gatherer culture that was able to eat so much meat and animal products daily. If people want to eat a little meat then that’s understandable to me but I personally don’t see where the proven benefit is myself.

        Yes time will tell if he’s able to keep it up. Same goes for you and me on our diets.

  40. All of these promoters of Internet diets ( way of eating) are either crackpots or deliberate frauds.

    The science of nutrition is in its infancy. Far too little is known to science currently.

    All we can do is eat a balanced diet. All food carries some risks. All genuine science will admit to uncertainty and unknowns. The optimal diet is not yet known. To know this, we would need a complete understanding of human biochemical cellular operations. We are nowhere close to that.

    The certitude of these Internet charlatans, frauds and crackpots of ALL demoninations is NOT able to be defended by what genuine science has shown us so far. Genuine science does NOT permit the extravagances these Internet gurus claim.

  41. @ Durianrider
    Hey mate if your diet is so perfect why did your brother in law just fail so badly on it?? Loss of strenght, lightheaded, tired all the time. After introducing fish and eggs back into his diet in 6 weeks he’s lifting heavy and looking and feeling good again. Hold on , let me guess, he wasn’t doing it right??? You really should change your angle mate as you could probably do alot of good for bad farming habits and get into a few of these guys faces, but to preach your bullshit from anything else but a moral point of view (your moral point of view) just makes you look like a dick!! You are now even known as a freak on many of the other raw food websites and even people from 30bad think your nuts. It’s like watching Charlie Sheen all over again. WINNING???? Worst part about all this is you are taking DONATIONS from hard working people so you can travel the world for free. I gotta take my hat off to ya bra your a smart cookie. Intersting thread, as usual Richard turns up and Harley does what he does best. RUN!!!! ha ha ha

  42. The 30 Bananas a Day lemmings are just insane. Who in their right mind would eat sweet fruit to get a lean and shredded physique like Harley, when you can consume bone broth and offal and look like Sally Fallon or Loren Cordain?

    • I’m sick to death of vegan advocates using examples of one or two outliers who can tolerate a a vegan diet and not get sick like the many other examples.
      Harley is 33 and does a lot of exercise, Sally Fallon and Loren Cordain have at least 20 years on him.

      Take a look at the bigger picture and the many people for who the vegan diet has failed please. And while you are at it – take a look at the extra-ordinary number of success stories of paleo eating. My father for one who has reversed his heart disease and is as lean as Harley – yet he’s 80.

      • Do the McDonalds in New Zealand pass out nutrition certificates in their Happy Meals? If not, then please consider why nearly all of the gurus in the so-called ancestral health movement – including Barry Sears and Lauren Cordain – are overweight. Dr. John McDougall has almost ten years on either one of these clowns and looks far trimmer and fitter.

        Let us hope that your father does not become “sick to death” from following this slaughterhouse-based insanity.

        • Your comment is barely worth reading – let alone replying to.

          As a nutritionist, let me just say that one of the sickest clients I ever had was a 50 year old vegan chef. Overweight, hunched spine, out of control diabetes, despite a very active lifestyle.

          Cordain is not overweight, I’ve seen him in person.

          Please send some studies through that show that a vegan lifestyle long term is healthy. And stop making idiotic comments, that seem to me to demonstrate the brain damage and irrationality of a mind devoid of sufficient long chain fatty acids.

    • 30 bananas a day lemmings – ha! I figured Harley couldn’t be ALL these trolls. If eating nothing but raw fruit makes such morons out of these people, there’s enough evidence right there to never advocate such a diet! And why not look up some REAL examples of athletes who follow a whole foods primal-type diet and do it smart, instead of relying on middle-aged non-athletes with average bodies like Sally Fallon. Oh, sorry, I was feeding the trolls again. I think I’m done now.

  43. So I am thinking that both diets appear to work for most people. The banner waving nut jobs in differing dietary camps are frustrating us normal folks looking for help. Cool your jets folks. Experiment and find what works for you. Look at the science and think for yourselves. I have eaten 80-10-10 and had success but I found it difficult to get enough calories without constantly eating. I am finding the calorically dense foods in Paleo meals mean less volume and I am still losing weight and feeling good. I think I will eat 80-10-10 when fruits are in season and Paleo during the rest of the year. So long as I am not mixing fats and carbs, avoiding grains, legumes and dairy, and eating organic/free range stuff… all should be well. Either way, I won’t be waving any banners or chanting any ridiculous mantras. I just want to be healthy!

  44. People get so heated.
    I am a supporter of a raw food diet. But I’m also not against people who consume animals for food.

    The commonalities are often more numerous than then differences. From a biochemical perspective, eating animal food doesn’t destroy the body.

    Eating really large amounts of animal foods can have some negative impact though.

    I’m not defending Harley, because I think he’s way too offensive to people, and is more interested in sensationalism and getting attention, than actually caring about people and trying to inform them.

    Having said that, the b12 issue is interesting. Most wild-grown vegetation does have b12 all over it, and eating it in the wild, as all other species have eaten it presently and historically, will provide enough b12. The total amount of b12 we need in an entire lifetime is about the size of a grain of rice. That’s not to say it’s not critical for health. It is, but it’s not like we must consume massive amounts of animal foods to get adequate b12.

    If you consume nothing but 100% raw vegan and then add just one oyster to your diet everyday, you get all the b12, zinc and copper you need.

    I don’t like it when meat-eating proponents overblow the b12 issue, as though it’s a reason for overconsumption of meat. It’s something to take seriously, but it’s not typically a vegan vs. meat issue.

    Another thing is this “below average urea levels” stuff.
    Urea is a toxin. It’s a byproduct of protein catabolism. The less protein we break down for energy, the better. Just because “normal” urea levels are a certain number doesn’t mean anything to me. Physiologically, this is one of those cases where “normal” ranges are useless. Same case with vitamin C. “Normal” ranges are too low.

    Low urea levels correlate with things like protein deficiency. But not necessarily so in ALL cases. For instance someone
    who gets just enough protein to remain in stable nitrogen balance and their albumin levels, levels of other proteins in the blood, and all other functional indications of protein levels are normal or optimal, there is no worry if urea happens to be low. It simply means you’re not breaking down as much protein because you’re not taking in more than you need.

    We need to start thinking about this stuff without a bent. “OMG look at all that fructose!” “OMG, no b12” etc etc.

    At the same time, the vegan-only crowd that suggests any animal food at all is toxic is pretty senseless. I understand if someone has a moral objection to consuming meat, but that’s not a scientific reason to not eat meat.

    There is virtually no difference between a person who eats mostly raw vegan and adds in some meat or animal foods, and someone who is 100% raw vegan. In fact, the addition of some animal foods may help with things like b12 and some other nutrients.

    I feel like the paleo crowd wouldn’t be so angry at vegans if the vegans didn’t bash meat eating as some kind of totally immoral act, effectively attacking meat eaters as bad people. Of course there’s going to be a reaction if you attack someone like that.

    The truth is that both sides often have a lot in common. It’s a shame to see the back and forth between some of you guys (and girls).

    I do think the glycogen issue is pretty relevant, but it’s also odd to say that a diet is better because it can facilitate riding a bike for long distances. It’s not healthy to do that. Our species, in fact all animal species, do not respond well to excess exercise. If that were true, all those world record holders in the long distance running competitions would be centenarians. But they aren’t.
    If it makes you feel good to run for hours on end, go ahead. And enjoy it. But to use that as a reason to suggest it’s what’s most healthy is pretty absurd.

    • She is indeed looking good, I think we have to keep looking at the big picture, like the things both healthy eating vegetarians and omnivores have in common: lots of vegetables, clean foods, a lack of processed foods, sugar, nasty vegetable oils etc. Showing one 70 year old that lives a healthy lifestyle does NOT prove that being a vegan is the healthiest way to live. There would be large numbers of omnivores eating clean food and living healthy that would compare
      Also this woman has thebenefit of good genes – her mother lived to 95, didn’t exercise and ate junk

  45. Oh please. Tell an Inuit to go on 30 bananas a day (or high fruit). Sheesh. Do genetic differences matter? YES. Julianne, your last comment is the sanest one on here. CLEAN EATING. Organic. People with ancestors from the equator do better on the high carb raw vegan diet than do people from northern climates. And Durian comes across with egotism to me, but if it works for him for another 10 years (good luck) well than that is his business. However, even 10 bananas a day for someone with kidney problems would put them in the hospital. It’s bad advice for SOME people. Period. That’s where ego gets you. “IT WORKS FOR ME”. Great. Don’t tell others what works for them when you don’t live in their shoes and don’t pretend the whole human race is genetically engineered the same way. It’s unscientific and stupid. I personally do great on veggies, butter, coconut oil, sprouted grains, a little chicken in cold times, lots of hot peppers, raw chocolate, and greens and MORE RAW IN SUMMER and hot weather. My ancestors didn’t eat a lot of fruit, esp. in winter, and neither do I. I love shelled hemp seeds too. I could go vegan, nutritional (brewers) yeast flakes and B supplements plus MSM crystals have already helped me cut animal products way down. However, when I’ve cut them out complete I get super deficient and weak spleen. I don’t have the constitution (ala chinese medicine/ ayurveda) or the genetics of D.R. For him to preach to me is hilarious. “Eating animals violates the law of ONE” say so many of these types. They preach all the live long day about consuming animals and how they are sentient beings with consciousness and feelings. WELL SO ARE PLANTS. Become a breatharian or shut up. Be happy there are conscious animal product eaters out there like me. ~

    • Something that smacks of hypocrisy among the absolutist moral veganism crowd is the “reduce harms” non-argument. I hate to be fallacious and go off on this tangent, but there is a high chance the electronics we own contain circuitry made from tin ore mined using slave labour in mines in Africa, assembled using sweatshop labour in South East Asia, which pollutes (etc, etc)… Would it be fair for me to talk down to a vegan with an iPhone, and to pretend I’m a moral bastion among evil people supporting the suffering of sentient beings? Should we demand that nobody buys electronics, or pretend that people don’t care about the suffering of others if they happen to have a certain lifestyle choice? Maybe such fallacious arguments can be used to “educate” people that are ignorant of such things. I don’t think that such guilt trips would be a constructive means to accomplishing anything other than ego stroking.

  46. I’m not going to tell people to stop eating meat or that it’s unhealthy. I’m just defending the high carb lifestyle. Julianne, McDougall is the same age as these high fat folks and he is pretty lean. While we’re on the subject of McDougall, many people have reversed most of the well known diseases including cancer, heart disease, oesteophoris, colitis and diabetes on his high carb diet. The same diseases low carbers say high carb diets cause. It doesn’t seem to be lattitude dependant. I’m not saying it’s because they were vegan or high carb, I’m just saying it worked and they didn’t need animal products for protein, zinc etc. They may have needed a B12 supplement but I don’t see how that’s a big deal.

    Many cultures have thrived on high carbohydrate diets in the east. They aren’t all vegan no, but they are high carb.

    I agree that the 80/10/10 diet isn’t scientifically proven to work AS A WHOLE, but there are many studies to suggest that it is a rather healthful one (as in studies on hydration and fruit comsumption for example)and very few studies to suggest that it is a bad one. I’ve never heard of a study saying “Don’t eat too much fruit”.

    If you want to do Paleo or similar then that’s your choice, it’s probably a reasonably healthy diet atleast, but I see no grounds to criticize Harley and his diet or the high carbohydrate diet when he is doing well and many others are doing well on high carbodydrate diets including raw ones.


    • Carbs in my view are very much what works for individuals, high carb does not work for me, neither does low carb – I feel great with moderate carbs, some days lower, some higher. For me the most important aspect of a diet is food quality – after that it’s tweaking.
      If a LFRV diet or 80.10.10 diet works for you – fantastic, if it doesn’t – re-evaluate and find you sweet spot with food / diet. Don’t think that what works for someone else is the best diet for you – it may not be.

  47. I respect your analysis, but you do a lot of speculation. Maybe Harley will get diabetes or maybe he has low sex drive or spends time on the toilet. It is unscientific at the least and can equally be applied to paleo eaters. I would say that the jury is out without long chain omega 3 analysis. How do you advise clients about the frequency of meat eating? Not even carnivores eat animals every day. I’m unclear as to how much a modern paleo diet can immitate a true paleolithic diet. Most of us only have access to factory farmed meat, which bears no relation to wild animals on a nutrient analysis.

    • Yes – I do speculate, some was in humour, which Harley took in the spirit it was intended.

      Yes the modern paleo diet is not like that which our ancestors ate. I’m not someone who thinks we should try to recreate some version of caveman diet. We need to look at what food is available today, what current science says, and epigenetics etc. Then base a diet on best science.

  48. Also do you believe that diets are species specific? So one kind of diet would enable all dogs to thrive? or does every dog need a different ratios of fat or protein? Why would every human be so different to each other?

    • Yes – I think diets are species specific. Dogs should eat like wolves. We should eat like hunter gatherers, although there is a broard range within that of what works for humans.

  49. I think Harley looks pretty fit. I’m not a vegan but I’m a cyclist. You should see how other cyclists look. Some are A LOT skinnier than Harley. People have to give Harley some credit for the fact that he does cycling and NOT weight training or bodybuilding. You have to look at his appearance and weight from a cyclist’s point of view. Check out how other cyclists look before you rip into him. I’m saying this as someone who eats everything so I have no reason to defend him.
    I tried out the Paleo diet twice for 3 months each time. My performance SUCKED big time which it didn’t when I did a 2 month vegan experiment.

    For all those Paleo style eaters: try doing long distance cycling on that diet yourself. Talk is cheap. I know the author of The Cyclist’s Training Bible, Joe Friel, recommends this diet but he is probably just trying to cash in or whatever but if you read books by people like Chris Carmichael who trained one of the best cyclists, Lance Armstrong, of all time, you’ll notice that he recommends a high carb, low protein diet.
    At least Harley DOES cycling and races so he walks the walk and doesn’t just talk.

    Just my 2 cents to Harley Johnstone(aka Durianriders)

  50. im not healthy, diabeties and would like to get emails, and newsletters on whatever this site as to offer, it seems a vegan raw diet works, i have a raw food friend. thank you. i would love to talk to Freelee

  51. I have been waiting for the paleo people to try to tear at Harley -I guess he really should have been dead years ago according to all your meat-head theories….I was with a paleo chic and saw how much anger and irritability she had from all the flesh she consumed….Paleo has to be the better than the SAD -but it most of the people who do it seem to be full of toxins and aggression~

    • Did you actually read my article – I pointed out clearly that Harley is doing fine on his diet – because he meets all the nutritional requirements due to his high calorie intake.

      People do not get angry from eating meat – quite the opposite. It provides important amino acids for neuro-transmitters

      The paleo diet is not a meat eating / carninovore diet – it is a plant based diet with some animal protein added in, in my opinion.

      • I guess you’re right and you really can’t say paleo is a plant or a meat based diet because it just includes certain food groups and excludes others. In a way a person could live paleo, being almost vegan, by eating 95% plant food and 5% animal protein(which would roughly be a chimp like diet) or almost a carnivore by eating 70% of meat, eggs, fish and 30% of veggies/fruits. Having said that I guess most paleo advocates recommend a certain percentage of animal protein and plant food. I don’t know if there are studies of what hunter and gatherers’ diets are like in different climates. I could imagine that they eat more plant food in warmer regions(Amazon) and more meat in colder regions(Alaska). A raw food vegan would have no chance living in the wild of Siberia while he would in Africa(although I personally think that humans are more vegetable than fruit eaters).

        What paleo advocates have to consider though is that there is a reason why humans started gathering wild grains at some point in history(about 12000 years ago) and stuck to it(and not just because it’s practical).
        I can imagine that a high animal protein diet(meat) made stone age humans, Neanderthals and earlier ancestors like Homo erectus tougher because they physically had tougher lives. A high protein diet might be cut out for a fast, short and harsh life(kind of the sprinter life) that requires a robust physique while a later grain/high plant food diet made humans less tough but increased their longevity because they were cut out for a less tough but more intellectual life(kind of the marathon runner’s life) which would explain why many long living societies like Okinawa have a higher plant/grain based diet. Modern humans rely more on their intellectual abilities rather than their physical skills and have better shelter than stone age humans did who needed a lot of animal fat to survive in colder regions.

        It’s just a thought but with every theory like paleo you have to ask yourself why humans across the globe(from Incas to Ancient Chinese) started eating starchy carbs, legumes and grains if it was bad for their health. Humans weren’t dumb in the last 10000 years and analyzed the effects of different foods even back then(see Ayurveda, Ancient Chinese medicine and others).
        My point is that it still has to be proven that paleo works best for your long term health. Grains, legumes and starchy vegetables have proved to work in several long living societies like Okinawa, Japan, Crete and often the oldest people alive often eat in moderation. These people are probably not cut out for the physically demanding stone age with that diet/eating pattern but they live longer.
        It’s just a thought that paleo might not be the most perfect diet for a long life, just as high intensity exercising might not be either.
        I’m saying that as a person who does high intensity exercise(swimming, cycling, strength conditioning) and likes animal protein btw.

        If you say that a mostly plant based diet with some animal protein is the healthiest diet, then I agree but the question is if grains, legumes, starchy vegetables and/or dairy actually damage your health or boost it.

        • I think humans (hunter gatherers) would have gone for the most energy dense food avaiable. Meat, fat, starchy roots, fruit, honey. That makes sense if it takes a lot of energy to gather food. Those who gather seeds, nuts legumes etc, all had to find ways to reduced the toxins. ALL early cultures processed these foods in such as way as to reduce anti-nutrients – fermenting, soaking, long slow cooking etc. You wont find any that ate these foods raw. Too damaging.

    • @Matt, read most of the raw-vegan-supporting comments on this very page, especially those of Durianrider himself and a few of his ilk, and you will see a lot more irritability, aggression and anger, not to mention complete narrowmindedness and a distict inability to respect others’ choices.

  52. Johnstone looks lean and mean, like any effective endurance athlete. Moreover, he does an excellent job of pointing out the inconsistencies of, often chubby, “gurus” pushing their supplements while pushing “healthy” meat and dairy products.

    His girlfriend(or wife?) was apparently pretty hefty than she began consuming all the fruits she wants and she looks like a sexy fitness model. She looks good in every video or photo. I can’t say the same for Wolfe or Vitalis.

      • Forgive me. I meant David Wolfe. He’s clearly a flabby guru. Freelea has nice muscles. She’s fantasy fit in this male’s eyes. Not to be crude, but she has a nice tight backside.

          • I just googled Freelea. I’m not sure if it’s the camera, photoshopping or weight fluctuations, but she seems nearly anorexic in some photos and in others she looks reasonably healthy. The breast implants are misleading. Why would proponents of clean eating get silicone globs sewn into their chests? I know, another topic altogether, but it’s really naive to assume that a “stacked” woman is healthy, especially when they aren’t real! Also, she appears to be small-framed, so having such a thin look might seem more natural on her, but others, like Robb’s wife, have different body types or different fitness goals altogether. Not all women want to look like malnourished children with boobs that float in the bathtub.

  53. Well, you both deserve each other. You and Durianrider are both obsessed, rabid and rigid. Like your both in a quest to uphold an ego that is far to large for sanity.

  54. hello there,

    what is the fuzz about b12??? it’s produced by bacteria that’s found in the ground. meat eaters get it from the animals they eat, vegans get it from the remaining dirt on their produce.

    now think logically. why would anyone be deficient in anything, when they eat raw fruits and veggies????????? they eat it unprocessed! all the nutrients in perfect ratio, unheated. all vitamins etc. intact!

    and now to biology. we are no meat eaters. gutts are too short. the meat is rottening throughout its passage from intake to excretion. our saliva is not acid compared to ALL meat eating animals. our digestive acid is not acidic enough compared to ALL meat eaters. the list goes on.

    so why are you fighting this? just accept fruit eaters and question the fact why the rest here on earth, eating a standard industrialized diet has so many aches and pains. might there be a connection?

  55. Interesting points coming up here.

    Some points that might help fill in the banquet table:

    We are an adaptable species. The Native Americans living in my area ate foods that their ancestors never saw once, and never ate once. Yet these foods were staples to them.

    (Same is true for all of us by the way.)

    I eat a lot of wild foods here, where I live in the mountains of Northern California, that none (literally none) of my ancestors (none of the recent ancestors from this part of this continent; none of the more-distant ancestors from Europe and the Southwest; none of the even-more-distant ancestors from Alaska, ancient Europe, and Siberia; and none of the still-more-distant ancestors from Africa).

    They never ate these foods. I thrive on them.

    We are adaptable. That is a hallmark of our species.

    While some diets may be better than others, there is a wide range of possibilities.

    Just because a certain vegan diet didn’t work (for you personally or for someone else) doesn’t mean a variation (another vegan diet) wouldn’t work.

    If you adopt a wider view than that of the individual in isolation, then which approach to diet is most sustainable, better for the planet, least destructive or damaging, least violent or ugly, more decent or kind, least selfish, least wasteful, least self-centric, more considerate, more conscious of the whole?

    (In case someone is thinking I’m a vegan dogmatist, I’m not. But I do think they have some excellent, clear, and rational points here.)

  56. Tried the vegan diet but needed to add legumes to meet my protein requirements. Damn near farted my brains out over the better part of 24 hours and the air was so thick you could have cut it with a knife. I no longer eat legumes and the vegan experiment is mercifully over. No more bloating and gas. Life is beautiful once again now that I consume meat and fish, root vegetables, leafy greens and berries. I consume very little grain. Its a toss-up as to who is happiest now – my wife or me.

  57. This diet will supply choline; any wholefood diet will. And also possibly quite a lot of betaine if spinach or beet are eaten. Betaine will support methylation and I think lower the requirement for B12, so that his low B12 count may have been adequate (he had no obvious metabolic problems when tested) for those reactions that cannot be met from betaine methylation (odd chain fatty acid and phytanic acid metabolism).

  58. I can call you Jules, right? It’s cool that you have posted this, and that so many people have contributed to the discussion below (which will be above, after this comment is posted). A lot of good information, it will keep me going for a decent amount of time (as I obviously haven’t read all, or even close to half of it). A major gripe for me, though, is the way that some have used their comments solely as a means to push an agenda, and don’t have any consideration for people such as myself that aren’t versed in the Paleo/811 language and don’t have any idea what all of those abbreviations mean. I know some of you think of each other at times as polar opposites, but from the outside looking in, you are mirror images (which I hope you guys take as an insult; seriously, stop acting like your distant ancestors throwing faeces at one another, or take up a job in politics).

    For the record, I don’t support any diet, and have only in the last few months even heard of what a low fat raw vegan, or a paleo diet is (having otherwise only read a newspaper article about “paleo dieting” a few years ago that basically summed it up as “a lifestyle of frequent exercise and raw food”, back when I didn’t have internet access to research what these things are). Again, for someone like me trying to learn more about these diets, lifestyles, and also health in general, some of you have made this far harder than it should be, which I can’t stress enough. Pushing propaganda and engaging in fallacious rhetoric won’t convince anyone of anything, other than the fact that some don’t want to act in a decent manner. It’s up to you to build, or destroy.

    What is being ignored is the fact that, compared to the “typical Western diet”, almost anything is more healthy — due to the simple fact that we are only just recovering from the negative health effects of switching to an agricultural diet (for the most part, devoid of variation). That we recently switched to processed food seems irrelevant to me if/when you are speaking about a healthy diet with regards to evolution; it’s not really much of a change, historically speaking, to take processed foods out of our diets — something which we do not need a great deal more knowledge, or time, to do. As Jules has pointed out, that something is healthi-er than an excess of red meat, trans fats, coloured carbonated water and processed sugar has nothing to do with whether or not that something is the healthi-est. And let us also not forget the myriad of previous “new findings” related to health; let us not forget all of the thousands of diets, exercise regimes and new superfoods that plummeted into pseudoscience as fast as they had appeared. The simple truth is that almost nothing is good for everyone, and the hard truth for some to swallow is that we still don’t know enough (amphetamine, nicotine, tholidomide, prozac, etc. Quick fixes that quickly fvcked us).

    Considering the general topic of raw vegan diet nutritional value and its health costs/risks/benefits, and the subject of mister Johnstone/durianrider (Vegemite of the internet-health-and-fitness “community — by reading the nutritional information, it appears to be healthy even if some think it doesn’t look appealing, and you either love it, hate it, or haven’t had a taste of it), I’m amazed at the low number of trolls. It appears as though the moderator(s) did a great job. Thanks in advance to anyone still reading, that will continue to contribute.

    p.s. Kiwiana <3TW

  59. Wow I was reading sean croxtons blog and landed here. Great job on the article. But reading the comments section left me wondering…. everyones arguing over which diet (meat vs. Vegetarian) are best for human race…but what about eating for your blood type? Why all the bashing? As type O vs A etc …..SUE n some others comment..u eat what makes u feel right….what works for someone else may not work for others. …so why cant people just accept it?

  60. Sorry to comment on such an old post but…DAYUM! I’ve researched the 80/10/10,30 BAD, and Raw til 4 movements. I need a dietary overhaul. But DurianRider, sorry to say, is one MAJOR turn off towards those movements. I’d rather hack it out on my own than listen to such over the top and often unnecessary volatile personal attacks as he delivers to people, or to larger communities in general. Personally, I see a high fruit diet as beneficial. If we tried a chimpanzee diet (some have pondered whether, because of our genetic similarities, we should eat this way) it would be mostly fruit, a good amount of leafy greens, some raw meat, and a small amount of nuts, seeds, and wild honey. I think it’s something like 49% fruits, 25% greens, 3-8% meat, and the rest split between nuts, seeds, honey, bark, pith, unripe fruits and insects. But theories aside, we all need B12. It USED to be abundant in soil, but now…I’m not so sure. And I’m not so sure I’d want to eat the dirt in half the places I have lived. We need just 3 oz of clams or fish to meet daily B12 requirements, and honestly I don’t see the harm in even doing a B12 “binge”, where meat is eaten only 3-4 months of the year total.

    Also…WE’RE ALL different. Why hate on that fact?

  61. Even though I disagreed with a lot of what Julianna wrote on these comments, I kind of let it go as it’s all just discussion. Until you read her response to the Vegan who posted his video of his muscle ups. Proud of himself and showing that you can be strong on a Vegan diet. and her response.

    ‘Well done. My guess is that with with some animal protein (not necessarily meat) you’d be even more impressive. Guys at my gym your age, and older are’

    Wow, what a condescending witch you are. Especially that last sentence. Way to make someone who feels proud, feel so small. Not to mention you’re full of S$%T! I’ve been doing to the gym for a year with my meat loving, daily milk drinking, animal product loving mate. We train the same days, same routines. I started off much weaker than him, he was smashing me on the bench press.

    Now I’m outdoing him on every level, with no animal products. How does that work then? By your logic every one can be better with animal protein, like its a magic drug. I don’t give a damn if people want to feel healthy eating animals, acting like what they’re doing isn’t creating mass cruelty on an unimaginable level and at the same time being the easily the single biggest contributor to world destruction. People can do what they want, but don’t be spreading extremely dumb messages. People might actually believe them!

  62. This guy sounds like he is constantly eating. What a chore! I don’t think his teeth would be in great condition with all the fruit sugar he consumes? I would feel nauseous on this diet, so full of sugar – albeit from ‘healthy’ fruit. I truly believe we are all so individual. If he feels good, even for a few years, then go for it, I guess. But be aware of the body asking for changes.

  63. Low libido? That seems a silly bit to throw in last minute, especially as a one-off statement without included research or information (and after such an interesting read, too). The people I know with the highest libidos are all vegan… One of my vegan girlfriends in fact is worried about her new relationship with a “meat eater” due to his tendency to “poop out” as she puts it after romantic dinner dates– because at fancy restaurants, this guy is eating meat and cheese, where she is eating gourmet plant-based food that fuels the body and doesn’t bog her digestive system down. I would relate, but my past two boyfriends have been strict vegans and athletes (though not “raw” dieters), and they more than match my energy levels.

  64. The amount of discussion and debate over something so simple and basic is staggering. Humans in general are hopeless and feeble, but my goodness..
    Humans just can’t bring themselves to make consistent effort, and instead put their efforts into looking for shortcuts and trying to get ‘something for nothing’, and all these extreme diets are just manifestations of those efforts.

    But the Golden Rule of the Universe is that you can’t get something for nothing in life. If you are getting something you overall like, want, or need, then there is always a price, compromise, or sacrifice to make. Always.

    I bet all the promoters and proponents of these extreme diets would get the same results as they claim their extreme diet is responsible for, if they instead had a BALANCED diet consisting of moderate consumption, which adhered to the following principles:
    1. IF what you’re contemplating ingesting can’t be found growing or flowing somewhere in Nature in a state or form similar to that in which you’re contemplating ingesting it, then DON’T FRICKEN EAT OR DRINK IT!!
    2. Lead an active lifestyle which includes daily exercise and a small amount of aerobic and resistance training

    Can you find Coca-Cola flowing or Cheeseburgers growing, somewhere in nature?

    If people just followed the above two principles there’d be no basis for dissecting and analysing Harley’s diet.

    It is so fricken simple, it’s difficult to fathom how all these extreme diet guru’s get any traction whatsoever.

    But human laziness has been and always will be the great driver of Capitalism. The whole “Personal Trainer” industry has developed on the back of human laziness. If ever there was a superfluous industry, the PT industry is it.

    How hard can it be to do a few sit-ups and chin-ups and run a few laps around the block every day or two (and on the off-day do a 30 minute walk)?

    The first principle can be extended to refer to any compound or molecule which is not found somewhere in nature, in terms of what to avoid putting into your body, such as man-made pesticides, and chemicals.

    IF a chemical or molecule doesn’t already exist in nature, then there is a much higher likelihood that it will be toxic to the human body.

    It’s easy. IF you make the effort, and exercise some rudimentary common sense.

  65. People who eat animal protein disgust me. You are all an embarrassment to the human race.
    When will you fat pigs be satisfied? When the oceans are empty and all the forests have been cut down for grazing.
    If you all weren’t so stupid and selfish we could save this planet.

  66. Animal protein is very acid ant it’s acidy our blood.
    Our body need to de-acid this, by taking all of the fosforans from our bones.
    Calcium is wiped with urine. That’s how eating meat works for oestoroporosis.

  67. Don’t be so ignorant. The guy is obviously fit as a fiddle.
    Eating a hamburger has a water footprint that would flood your street.
    He eats twice the calories because he’s extremely active, and on a decent diet you don’t get fat from eating, regardless of the amount.
    Meat is an addiction. When that is understood, the reason for the huge amount of energy going into defending meat eating is clear. Fear of change.
    Your free? but don’t take the rest of the world down with you plz.

  68. your analysis is shit. All you know about nutrition and physiology is what other guru paleo bloggers spew on a daily basis. You feel you belong to this paleo culture and thus think your ideas are superior but they are not. You just read blogs and quote other stupid bloggers. Get some real world experience and read real science and then maybe you can write your own unique blogs instead of repeating the same paleo crap that everyone reads….you old bag.

  69. SORRY THERE AREN\’T ANY DEAD ANIMALS LAYING AROUND, GRANDMAS OLD FASHIONED BONE BROTH IS OUT OF THE QUESTION. Feel free to help yourself to some bananas, some soil, or some supplysupplysupplements.

  70. You’re so ridiculous. All the hyperbole about B12 on every blog post. EVERYBODY knows about B12 so stop harping on it, FFS.

    Also what kind of “nutritionist” are you? Taking a guy’s ONE DAY food and extrapolating it out as if he eats the exact same things every day.

    As an American I bet a dollar you WORK FOR THE ANIMAL industry down there. New Zealand lamb, right?

    And where are YOUR LABS?

    • I don’t work for the animal industry. I work for myself. Of course it is one day – however by his own admission he eats nothing but fruit and a little raw veg every day. I did not extrapolate – I analysed ONE day. But I did extrapolate on diet type – that is a B12 deficient, high fruit diet. Which is what Harvey agrees with.
      And no – vegans continue to be blind to the issues of nutrient deficiencies. Take a look at pubmed. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24667752
      And anyway this was written 6 years ago.

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